donnaimmaculata | Smash the heterosexual orthodoxy

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Smash the heterosexual orthodoxy

Following the confirmation of the Remus/Tonks canon and the subsequent - to use a polite term - discussions about whether or not Rowling has merely submitted to society's heterosexist pressure, I would like to ask a question that's always interested me: What makes Remus gay?

I am asking this, because there are many readers who read the character Remus Lupin as gay. And I don't mean the character's being coded as representing the idea of homosexuality on an allegorical level, which is quite a different thing. (A worrying one as well if people assume that making someone a vicious man-eating monster means that they stand for homosexuality, but this is neither here nor there.) What I am interested to know is what, exactly, about Lupin's characterisation makes readers think he's as gay as a tree full of monkey.

Because, as much as I like writing and reading Remus in slash pairings, I've never read the character in the novel as gay. (He reminds me far too much of my ex-BF for that, but this, again, is neither here nor there.) He's polite, understanding and witty, which, I realise, are qualities that are often contributed to gay men, because they are oh so full of understanding for us women, quite unlike their rude, insensitive, grumpy straight counterparts.

This is a serious question. I'm honestly interested.

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I never read him as gay.

Obviously not pre-fandom, because I didn't read anyone as gay - and my brother is gay, so it's not as if I don't trip over gay people regularly.

And I don't read Marauder's Era stuff, so I have almost never been exposed to gay!famdom!Remus, either.

So the Tonks thing didn't upset me at all.

So this is a pointless comment.

I never read him as gay either, but in fandom he is the gayest gay character ever. I wonder why.

The Tonks thing didn't upset me because it is Tonks, but because now there is a canonical SO. It would have upset me just as much if it had been Snape or Harry or Bill. Well, Bill a bit less. But I would have been much more upset if it had turned out to be Sirius, because theirloveissocanon is too omnipresent for my comfort as it is.

What would life on LJ be without pointless comments? And pointless posts?

I haven't been exposed to any crazyness over the Remus/Tonks thing - I have, however had enough of the H/Hr thing.

I can understand Snupin and Harry/Remus people pouting - but how does this effect Remus/Sirius people? I think it's a seperate issue comepletely.

It would be almost empty!

For me it's the stuff from OotP. He watches Sirius for a fair while in that big kitchen scene, and their interaction mirrors the Molly/Arthur interaction quite a bit. Plus Remus is alone, and seems to have only ever had his schoolfriends in his life... okay we could be missing a lot of his inbetween story, but there is the impression that they (or one in particular, who knows) meant a hell of a lot more to him than we would expect. Maybe it's just too sad to think that he never got any shagging in at all :(

But the polite and understanding gay man thing? Hahahaha. My best gay male friend is a Geordie with a foul temper who swears incomprehensibly and gets into fights when he has too many beers.

Honestly? When I read PoA for the first time, I absolutely saw the Remus/Sirius thing (and that was long before I got into HP as a *fandom*), but seeing one m/m relationship for a character doesn't preclude that character's involvement with someone of the opposite sex. Bi, at least...but not necessarily gay.

I have a feeling the *real* All Gay, All the Time coding for Remus was done by Cuaron in the movie. Remus's last scene with Harry was very much "Parents don't want gay men teaching their kids," but I didn't get that message in the book.

I didn't see the Sirius/Remus thing, but that might be because I was so focused on Remus that everything else faded into the background. The Prisoner of what?

But I get the feeling that Remus is often perceived as gay even if there was no Sirius in the case. There have been many posts lately about how "Rowling took a perfectly gay character" and gave him a beard.

Hm. I am not at all impressed by the contamination through the movies. Especially since I don't really like them myself and it confuses me when movie canon is suddenly established.

The only one the books actually point to with a big gloved hand coming from the sky is Gilderoy Lockhart.

When I reread OTP just recently I was specifically looking for signs, and couldn't find any. OTP is distinguished, indeed remarkable, for showing grown-up friendship: as the children age they're being admitted to that viewpoint more. The interactions between Tonks and the girls have more resonance, but still not enough to really read any hints into it.

Though I have to admit I was hoping Tonks was; and was disappointed with the hastiness and non-foreshadowing of the thing with Remus. Even during the one book, until it's revealed, you couldn't guess. You don't know what the hair means; the Dark Mark rubbing was a deliberate red herring that was never re-explained later; and there was no interaction that could let you even fantasize.

You know, I can see the Sirius/Remus appeal, even though I don't really ship them. However, there is a difference between the situational gayness of Remus (i.e. he's shagging Sirius) and the inherent gayness (i.e. the character is teh gay, even though there is no Sirius in the case). And I wonder where this comes from.

My best gay male friend is a Geordie with a foul temper who swears incomprehensibly and gets into fights when he has too many beers.

Does he scratch them with his manicured nails? *g* Maybe he's a hetero in the closet.

Hmm. Maybe. I dunno then, maybe it is the stereotype for some of those folks.

Trust me, I try not to look at Ian's nails. I know where they've been *shudder*

My best gay male friend is a Geordie with a foul temper who swears incomprehensibly and gets into fights when he has too many beers.

He's not on Big Brother at the moment, is he? *g*

No, see...I don't buy movie canon either, but I think that the images and sensibilities are so pervasive that the fandom as a *whole* can't help but be - as you say - "contaminated" by it, and that includes the whole "Remus is totally gay" thing.

I mean, yes...the movie also had Remus going on about his teenage relationship with Lily, but to someone like me, who spent her teenage years working in theatre and 90% of whose male friends were gay, that just read as the usual "alienated gay teenage guy with sympathetic straight female friend" scenario.

Remus in book canon? To me, he's just as likely to be involved with a woman as with a man...and more likely to be involved with neither.

I've never watched BB, but I very much doubt it!

I would love one of my friends to go on, just so I could sit next to the lovely Dermot O'Leary on the Big Brother's Little Brother couch on eviction days...

Hahah. Actually, it's the sort of thing Ian would do. Maybe I should persuade him... I don't want to go on telly though. People I don't like would see me and that creeps me out (yes, I'm strange, and a control freak!).

Gilderoy is such a queen, it's not true.

OTP is distinguished, indeed remarkable, for showing grown-up friendship

Yes. That is so true. This is one of the things I liked about the book - we get an insight into how the adults are relating to each other. But with regard to Remus and Sirius, I've always felt that they simply fall back on one another because they have no-one else who is close to them. Old school friendships do that for people, I think. I fall back into the old patterns when I meet old friends from school, even when I haven't seen them in a long time.

I don't mind the lack of foreshadowing in HBP - most of their action happens off-screen, and there is no way Harry could spy easily into Remus' love life. And it's not as though the Remus/Tonks thing was important in the great scale of things.

you have a point there - this is why I haven't the least desire to be famous. I always immediately think of the bitches from school or exes that would see me and slag me off!

I always thought that if I accidentally got famous, I would pay my friend to pretend to be me and do all the public stuff for me...

Trust me, I try not to look at Ian's nails. I know where they've been *shudder*

Ahaha! And oh dear... *g*

but I think that the images and sensibilities are so pervasive that the fandom as a *whole* can't help but be

Oh yes, I know what you mean. And there are many aspects of movie canon that have been implemented into "real" canon I don't care about at all. With regard to Remus, however, it annoys me, because movie!Remus has hardly anything in common with my idea of Remus. I wouldn't mind the occasional exploration of, say, the gay subtext, or the use of scars or even the cardigan in fanfiction, but I don't like that they have become established as common knowledge.

The same applies to Sirius/Remus, BTW. I don't dislike the pairing as such, but there is hardly a Remus fic out there these days which does not refer to Remus' tragic relationship with Sirius. Ah well.

and more likely to be involved with neither.

That's my impression, as well. He's so detached and uninvolved. My major quibble with Remus/Tonks is probably (the ramifications for slash fiction aside) the holding hands at the funeral. I so never saw Remus as a holding-hands sort of guy; it's hard to wrap my mind around the concept.

I always thought that if I accidentally got famous, I would pay my friend to pretend to be me and do all the public stuff for me...

Ha, snap! And I thought it was just me ...

My back-up plan for when I'm grown up is to write a bestselling novel, get rich and never have to work again. This, of course, would make me famous, and since I, too, want to avoid that, I've been thinking of possible noms de plume, just in case.

No, I haven't got an idea for the novel yet. But I've got plenty of pen names to publish it under *g*

...And yet it is still all about Teh Harry/Ron, isn't it?

I think the Snape/Lupin and Harry/Remus people had to write around many more difficulties than the Sirius/Remus people to begin with. I can imagine that they just shrug off Tonks easily (Snape being Dumbledore's murderer is a much more significant obstacle for Snupin, I should think), whereas many Sirius/Remus shippers considered the pairing as canon. My impression, anyway.

For me, it was just a gut feeling, not a list of things I could tick off. And I should clarify: I didn't think that JKR thought he was gay. Like I don't think George Lucas thinks Luke Skywalker is gay, but gay he is, to me.

And I had the same feeling about Tonks, which is why the whole romance seems so weird to me.

but there is hardly a Remus fic out there these days which does not refer to Remus' tragic relationship with Sirius.

With the exception of the couple of Remus/Sirius stories I've written, my Remus never has a relationship, tragic or otherwise with Sirius, even in backstory. I think it's a small militant rebellion on my part against so many people setting Remus/Sirius as a default pairing, which I don't agree with. LOL

I never saw them as a couple in PoA even though I was reading and writing slash in another fandom at the time, and I don't think Remus reads as gay. I'm puzzled by the "Remus is Teh Gay in canon" idea, too; I've always read him as a quiet man who craves companionship but is an outsider due to his curse, developing protective walls between himself and the rest of the world out of necessity. Which, yes, could be symbolic of homosexuality, but it doesn't mean he's actually gay. And that's coming from someone who loves slashing him with at least four different men on a regular basis, but I figure that's what fandom is for. *G*

Remus, to me, has always been a character who certainly could be gay, but didn't read to me as such. He could go either way because he was reticent and kept his feelings to himself. I think perhaps some of the things that read as positively gay have to do with his werewolfism--he has something to hide in a way that historically many gay characters have had to hide.

Actually, Sirius was the one who has always pinged me as 100% gay. Just an impression, formed somewhere I think between him ignoring the blonde girl in the Pensive scene and the way he fights with Molly, which reminds me of a few gay friends.

I started thinking of Remus as gay in association with Sirius. I still mostly thought of him as gay rather than bi, partly because (even though I'm bi myself) bisexuality is a rarer thing, but also because I like the idea of them being completely into guys and especially into each other.

I still dislike R/T, but not because Tonks is female. I can honestly say I'd have disliked it even more if Snupin had been made canon...it's just not somewhere I see the characters going.

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