donnaimmaculata | On Ginny

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On Ginny

Apparently, there are those who say that Harry only went for Ginny because she's Lily II. Regardless on whether or not this is true - would that be that bad if the boy fell in love with a girl who reminded him - if only superficially - of his mother? I know that I tend to go for boys who have something in common with my father. I'm not attracted to my father at all, but I've read a silly little poem he wrote in my diary when I was ten recently, and I realised that I could so fall for a man who writes like that. And then I thought, OMG, it's my father! And: But the poem's so cute and witty!

What I'm trying to say is that there's nothing wrong with being attracted to someone because there are certain characteristics about them which remind you of your parents. ~~Unless there's something seriously wrong with me, which I wouldn't quite rule out.~~

I've always liked Ginny. She's the only female character in the novels who's ever showed a sense of humour. Her newly developed ability of being entertaining is a logical extrapolation of her capability of laughing at silly things, which she had shown from the very beginning. She's unnecessarily bitchy? Growing up at Molly's daughter, she had to find some way to deal with her pent-up frustrations.

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Hm, my problem is not that she is Lily, it that both are JKR... (= Mary Sues)

Personally, I don't get the whole Mary-Sue debate, because it's impossible to pin down what makes a character a Mary-Sue and also to give an exact definition on what a Mary-Sue really is. IMO, anyway.

I know what you mean. Maybe what I'm trying to say is that Ginny is too cool and Lily is too perfect, and then I can't identify myself with them.

Well, that's just your opinion. You don't like the characters, fine. That doesn't mean that they are a) badly written or b) unappealing to everyone. Writers aren't there just to cater to you.

And this is just your opinion.

At the moment, yeah, Lily is too perfect. But then again, she's dead. It's hard to get in information about her. We got a chance to see James as an egotistical jerk in Book 5, maybe we'll see something about Lily in Book 7.

Wait, didn't you know? Ginny is how JKR gets to act out her latent desires to cast really awesome bat-bogey hexes and make out with a 16-year-old boy.

As for Lily, Harry was told that she was a total loser and failure as a mother by his foster family for most of his life. He found out that he'd been lied to, but has still only been given a few facts about his mother (She took an Avada Kedavra for him, was good at Charms and Potions, had a bad temper) so he's idealized the heck out of her. He did the same thing to his father until Snape's Pensieve memory shattered his illusions and made him look at James as an actual person with real flaws. I think a similar coming down to earth experience awaits him with Lily. (And that Snape will be involved again.)

In what way? Which characteristics do they share with JKR?

If anything, I thought Hermione was the character JKR based on her younger self.

Her sense of humour, her courage, the colour of her hair. As for Mary Sueism, she's the one who's going to win the hero; she has always loved him; she's his soul twin.

I do believe JKR has put a lot of herself into Hermione in the first books, but not in HBP.

As for Mary Sueism, she's the one who's going to win the hero; she has always loved him; she's his soul twin.

See, this is why I have big problems with the label "Mary Sue" when it's applied to canon characters. To me, a Mary Sue is a character who disturbs the balance of the canon universe and usurps roles that rightfully belong to the canon characters. It would be reasonable to apply this label to an OC who ended up defeating Voldemort, for example, because that's Harry's job, but that doesn't make Harry himself a Stu if he defeats Voldemort.

Similarly, I think you could make a good argument that an OC who ends up with Harry is a Mary Sue -- because there's already a canon character who fills that role, and you have to warp the canon to fit a different character into it. But this argument doesn't apply to Ginny, because she's supposed to be there. Being Harry's love interest is her job in the text. (And in order for her to do that job properly, she has to have qualities that attract him. The story wouldn't be improved if JKR left these qualities out; instead, readers would be left wondering what he saw in her.)

None of this means that readers have to like her or identify with her -- I do happen to like her, but I can certainly sympathize with people who dislike her because she's a brat to Ron, or because she went out with Michael and Dean even though she knew she liked Harry better and then broke up with them for trivial reasons. But I don't understand the reasoning behind labeling her a "Mary Sue" or disliking her because of her good qualities.

I think there are many different interpretations of what a Mary Sue is, and that's one of the reasons why Donna Immaculata said she doesn't get the Mary Sue debate. I have seen this word applied to many aspects, from author insertion to the infalibility of the character. I don't want to pursue this discussion because I think we are dealing with very imprecise definitions.

As for Ginny, she doesn't interest me as a character precisely because of her *coolness*.

To me, a Mary Sue is a character who disturbs the balance of the canon universe and usurps roles that rightfully belong to the canon characters.

Yes, yes, and yes. Which is why I don't believe you can ever look at a canon character and call her a Mary Stu. You put it very eloquenty. Mary Sues are for fan-created works only, never ever for canon.

That should, of course, read "Mary Sue" in the first sentence, not Stu. *headdesk*

See, I believe exactly the opposite. You can definitely have Mary Sues in canon--sometimes they're even done in such a way that it doesn't matter they're a Mary Sue. They can even upset the balance of canon, despite being in canon. I loved reading somethng where apparently an editor of Madeleine L'Engle criticized her character in exactly those terms--X is always right, she lectures even adults on right and wrong, everyone loves her but she's completely insufferable. Luckily L'Engle changed this, but it still seems like the criticism is the same--you've written a Mary Sue here, and we don't like her!:-) So I tend to think of them as canon creations first with the fanfic version just being a secondary one, one that's probably more easily spotted and abused.

One of the big problems with calling a canon character a Mary Sue, besides all that

a_t_rain and others mentioned above, is that if you define Mary Sue as partially a self-insert, how do you know that the character is one? Unless one knows the author personally, it's a mite arrogant to say, "So-and-So is Author X's self-insert."

Sometimes authors will say that they based a particular character on themselves - which JKR did with Hermione and also Harry (people overlook this latter). But otherwise, a reader can't assume that a particular character is a self-insert, unless they know the author. Unless the reader is some kind of Legilimens and can read inside the author's mind.

One of the big problems with calling a canon character a Mary Sue, besides all that a_t_rain and others mentioned above, is that if you define Mary Sue as partially a self-insert, how do you know that the character is one? Unless one knows the author personally, it's a mite arrogant to say, "So-and-So is Author X's self-insert."

But why would that only apply to published authors and not fanfic?

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mafdet.livejournal.com - 2005-09-17 18:40 (UTC) - Expand

The thing with Ginny - as well as most of the female HP characters - is that they just plain cannot win. If they are "too cool" or otherwise appealing, they are Mary Sues. If they aren't attractive enough, it's "What does he see in her?" You can bet that if Ginny were quiet and mousy we'd be deluged with "Why is Harry interested in HER?" comments.

The only way Ginny could be a Mary Sue, IMO, is if JKR suddenly changed the books to be All About Her, and instead of Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince we had Ginevra Weasley and the Half-Blood Prince where Ginny was the heroine of the books and the one to defeat Voldemort. And she doesn't. The books are still all about Harry, with Ginny as a secondary character.

And you are right that a love interest has to have some appeal. Good god can you imagine the outcry if Ginny was NOT conventionally attractive? Or *gasp* a bit overweight? We'd be treated to screeds of "OMG DIE FAT BITCH" all the livelong day.

Her sense of humour, her courage, the colour of her hair.

That's rather presumptuous, don't you think? JKR has a public persona, we don't really know what her sense of humor is like, nor how courageous she is. She said she "admires" courage, but that's as far as it goes. And as for her hair - I've seen it blonde as well as red. I guess that makes the Malfoys her self-inserts, too.

This is just your opinion too.

Oh, and she's intelligent and smart too, of course.

And Gryffindor boys, Slytherin boys and freaking Death Eaters in the middle of a giant fight in the middle of Hogwarts feel compelled to comment on her good looks. Yeah. Not a Sue. Totally.

:) Yeah. I don't hate Ginny. I just find her a very uninteresting character, and if she had been written by a fic writer, many people would agree she's a Mary Sue.

Hm, my problem is not that she is Lily, it that both are JKR...

And you know this how?

This is just my opinion, of course. What else could it be? Everything everyone can state is just their opinions. Or your statements are more than your opinion?

Well, the way you phrased it it was as if you somehow knew JKR personally and were confident that she based Ginny and Lily on herself. You didn't say "I believe that..."

And besides, unless you actually know the author and/or she said "This character is based on me" you don't really know if Character X is a self-insert.

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