On Ginny

[donnaimmaculata]

Apparently, there are those who say that Harry only went for Ginny because she's Lily II. Regardless on whether or not this is true - would that be that bad if the boy fell in love with a girl who reminded him - if only superficially - of his mother? I know that I tend to go for boys who have something in common with my father. I'm not attracted to my father at all, but I've read a silly little poem he wrote in my diary when I was ten recently, and I realised that I could so fall for a man who writes like that. And then I thought, OMG, it's my father! And: But the poem's so cute and witty!

What I'm trying to say is that there's nothing wrong with being attracted to someone because there are certain characteristics about them which remind you of your parents. Unless there's something seriously wrong with me, which I wouldn't quite rule out.

I've always liked Ginny. She's the only female character in the novels who's ever showed a sense of humour. Her newly developed ability of being entertaining is a logical extrapolation of her capability of laughing at silly things, which she had shown from the very beginning. She's unnecessarily bitchy? Growing up at Molly's daughter, she had to find some way to deal with her pent-up frustrations.

Comments

[shocolate.livejournal.com]

Yup, yup.

Hubby is very like my dad, I suppose.

I mean, if you hate your father, the same qualities in a boy will put you off, won't they?

I always thought Ginny was half-Roon and half-twins - which is very attractive!

[fraught.livejournal.com]

She's unnecessarily bitchy? Growing up at Molly's daughter, she had to find some way to deal with her pent-up frustrations.

Yes, but I don't have to like it. She annoys me. A lot.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm not saying that anyone has to like Ginny, just because I do. I think there are quite a few characters that I like which are heartily disliked in fandom. Ginny just so happens to not annoy me.

[souliesoul.livejournal.com]

Hear, hear!

[ptyx.livejournal.com]

Hm, my problem is not that she is Lily, it that both are JKR... (= Mary Sues)

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Personally, I don't get the whole Mary-Sue debate, because it's impossible to pin down what makes a character a Mary-Sue and also to give an exact definition on what a Mary-Sue really is. IMO, anyway.

[a-t-rain.livejournal.com]

In what way? Which characteristics do they share with JKR?

If anything, I thought Hermione was the character JKR based on her younger self.

[mafdet.livejournal.com]

Hm, my problem is not that she is Lily, it that both are JKR...

And you know this how?

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Despite the fact that she's the one character in canon I really can't stand ;-), I don't think it's really that she reminds Harry of his mother superficially--if anything it's that he sort of automatically goes for the same qualities his father went for in his mother. Not superficial qualities, but more things that he values. He doesn't know his mother at all, so there's only so much he can look for of her in another person.

[author-by-night.livejournal.com]

We don't even know that Ginny looks like Lily. We know they both have red hair - like the rest of Ginny's family, Marietta Edgecome, and younger Dumbledore.

[cutecoati.livejournal.com]

Growing up at Molly's daughter, she had to find some way to deal with her pent-up frustrations.

You do have a point here ;-))

I've to admit that I absolutely don't like Ginny (besides, I think she went through a serious personality change between Books 4 and 5, from the little mousy, shy, blushing girl to Miz Suuuupercoooool) - but what really annoys me is that we're supposed to like her (that's maybe the reason why I like Draco... *whistles*): I can see her behaviour as the realistic conduct of a 15 year old girl, a girl without any manners... what if Pansy behaved like that, she would be the nasty, rude, abusive and omg ebil bitch!

I think the whole Ginny = Lily thing has been exagerated a little bit (also in HBP, though...), as sistermagpie already said, Harry knows next to nothing about his mother (but it is not generally a bad thing being attracted to the same type!:).

[arseaboutface.livejournal.com]

Dude. Pansy -is- a nasty rude, abuseive and omg ebil bitch.

[froda-baggins.livejournal.com]

I like Ginny too. I think she's funny. Good to know someone else does. It's so difficult to find other people who do.

[eraticschematic.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I don't get fandom's problem with Ginny. Well, let me rephrase. I understand it, but I don't understand is why everyone is so very...stern? I don't want to say militant, but...very extreme and fixed Ginny haters. She's a fun character, and she has plenty of the flaws that characterize the other players in the game.

Bah, humbug.

[gmth.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's just Molly's influence that makes Ginny bithcy. I think it's more likely growing up as the only girl in a family of boys, as well as being the youngest. I am the youngest and only girl in my family, and I know from experience that sometimes you have to be tough and yeah, a bitch if you're going to get noticed and be taken seriously. Otherwise your brothers are likely to walk all over you. I identify a lot with Ginny... which actually kind of sucks because I don't particularly like her. But I can understand why she is the way she is.

[quivo.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you stood up for this - honestly, the way people hate on Ginny is just overdone - I like her bitchy and mouthy. And the reason she seemingly underwent a "omg total change" between books four and five is because Harry got to know her better. She was barely in the books otherwise, so I don't see how people decided she was a total wuss before book five...

I sort of understand why people would go for Draco and Pansy and so on, but, looking at it realistically, those are two rather nasty pieces of work. Which isn't to say that Harry himself can't be a nasty little boy when he puts his mind to it, but just that it's a bit unrealistic for people to dislike seeing the same qualities in one character (e.g. Ginny) that they like in other characters (e.g. Draco).

But hell, what do I know.

[funwithrage.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I agree. And the "omg total change" thing always makes me want to ask people if neither they nor anyone they knew changed a lot between eleven and fifteen. I mean a) four years, and b) puberty, for fuck's sake.

[mafdet.livejournal.com]

I'm glad there's someone else who likes Ginny. I don't get the Ginny-hate in the fandom; I see it as mostly sour grapes with a dollop of misogyny on top. "Harry belongs to MEEEEEEE!" "Girls should know their places!"

It's one thing to not like the character - doG knows there are HP characters (Marietta, Slughorn) whom I don't like much. But it seems as if the vitriol heaped upon Ginny is out of all proportion to her character and her importance in the story.

[ninepointfivemm.livejournal.com]

*waves the Ginny fangirl flag*

I love Ginny. A lot.

[sullypants.livejournal.com]

This is how I feel about her as well. And I usually am more intrigued by a person if they share qualities that I always saw in a someone I respected immensely (like my parents. for instance).

Although it is fun to joke about Harry having an Oedipus Complex though XD Muahahaha.

[twirls.livejournal.com]

I love Ginny. I (think that I) understand the 'OMGMARYSUE' red flag, because we are SO used to pointing it out in fanfiction. It has become the HP Fandom's official sport and we are loathe to let up, even in the realm of canon. But female literary characters with spunk are often like that. Ginny reminds me of the second eldest Bennet a bit. Is Elizabeth in Pride and Prejudice a Mary Sue? If she is, does that make Jane Austen a Mary Sue writer as worthy as spork as your average pottersues plug?
Please don't assume here that I am comparing a modern, fantasy writer with one of the most highly respected authors of great literature, I'm just trying to say that Ginny has to be likable. And I like it. :)
Also, the guy I am crushing on has the same sense of humor as my dad. I ♥ it.

[ixtoh.livejournal.com]

I'm mostly curious about this poem of your dad's! =)

[midnitemaraud-r.livejournal.com]

I like Ginny, too. And really, if she's a Mary Sue, then so was I when I was a teenager - although I will concede that I did not always date 'the most popular' boys nor did they all pine for me. :) I think people just want to hate her, regardless of how she's written. They hated Cho, too, for dating Harry.

And I know exactly what you mean about wanting to date someone like our fathers. But I would never ever ever in a million years date someone like my mother - I'd rather join a nunnery. (And I'm Jewish, too!) *g*

[mafdet.livejournal.com]

I think people just want to hate her, regardless of how she's written. They hated Cho, too, for dating Harry.

This is very true. I believe there would be some excuse or another for hating Ginny no matter how utterly brilliantly JKR crafted her. She just plain cannot win.

As for Cho, I dislike her character and find her annoying as hell but not because she dated Harry. I didn't like her personality nor her quisling friend. (Wormtail/Marietta = OTP.) I liked her pre-OOtP, when she just seemed like a nice person. I do remember her getting oodles of hate back then as well for being - dun dun dun! - a "Mary Sue." Which is one reason why the term has lost just about all of its meaning.

[mimine.livejournal.com]

I find JKR pushing the Lily/Ginny connection very creepy. I'm also amused with how the ideal girl for Harry before seeing his mother in action was Cho and after seeing her he's all about Ginny. Who is funny, brave, pretty and redheaded like his mother. Ick!

It seems to be something of a theme with Rowling, Ron too seems to be responding to Hermione's Molly-like bossiness.

I don't care about Ginny that much. Ideally there won't be much of her in the next book so I'll be happy.

[quivo.livejournal.com]

The truth is, though, that people DO go for people who have the qualities they like the most - qualities that are usually found in their parents and so on. I don't mind the parallel between Lily and Ginny so much - it actually makes sense in a way, as Harry's not the type of person who's comfy with girls anyway, and Ginny is easier to deal with, for him, than someone like Cho or whatever.

And don't you get the feeling that the HP series centers on family issues a lot? Almost all of the main characters had problems with or tried to get away from their families and backgrounds, but it sticks with them anyway - e.g. Voldemort. He kills his dad and grandparents and when he needs to be rejuvenated...he goes back to his dad's grave. He hates his father because his father was insanely prejudiced for no real reason...and is the same way.
Then, we have Harry - not knowing much about his parents, idolising them in a way because of what he hears about them, then, during OOTP, even while he's screaming his head off at everyone and acting out, he finds out about how his dad was at school, and is horrified. It doesn't stop him from hating Snape all the same, or just not seeing the people around him for whom they really are, or taking credit for what was obviously not his work in Potions in HBP.

In a way, Harry irritates me - he's a big hypocrite in many ways about stuff and about how he sees himself. He sees himself as "good", ultimately, but he's tried to use Unforgiveables, slashed open another student, used shady tactics in Quidditch to help his best friend, and cheated (frankly) at Potions. He's just as grey as anyone else in the series, and I feel it's time he acknowledges that - I'm not saying he shouldn't have done all those things, or that he's a BAD BOY or whatever, I just feel he eventually should come to terms with it.

And here ends my ramble. FIN

[persephone56.livejournal.com]

*hugs you* That was such a good thing to have said. I love Ginny, and I agree that her personality reflects her family background well: she has always seemed particularly close to the twins and her sense of humour and her brashness is an outgrowth of their influence on her.

And yes, it's very natural to seek out qualities of your parents in your mates. I did, not consciously of course, and I see nothing wrong with that!

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Ginny has always been my second-favourite character, the first one being Minerva. But I would have liked Harry to end up with Parvati, whom I also like exceedingly and who deserves more screentime.

[apey1013.livejournal.com]

It is true that doctors say that it is not uncommon for women to end up with men like their fathers (the same with sons and moms). As a matter of fact, women actively seek out men with a similar immune system to their father's. I think the pheremones tell your body that.

Anyway, there is a fine line between the goodness and the badness of this. I'm talking about, of course, something along the lines of the Oedipus and Electra complexes. What makes it so weird for Harry to be with Ginny are a couple things:

1) It is an obvious set up for true-love stuff which is bull because they met when he was 11 and she was 10 which makes it highly unlikely that they'd last too long.
2) She isn't just kinda like his mom. She's a LOT like his mom. She practically looks the same, she has a similar attitude surfacing, and she has that magical aptitude. Lily 2.0
3) His mother is dead. He never met her, but he's a little obssessed with her. He has dreams about her. He can hear her screaming in his head as she tried to save him. When he was younger, he seemed a little more concerned about his father. But in these later years (especially HBP) as his hormones are kicking in he's become more focused on his mother. After all, before all anyone ever told him about his mother was that they have the same eyes.
4) It has been established that he's a LOT like his dad. So this is like setting Harry and Ginny up as James and Lily 2. That's just creepy. Besides, what does that make Ron and Hermione? Remus/Sirius2? With Colin Creevy or Nevill serving as (non-evil) Peter? Too freaking cyclical.

The Harry/Ginny thing just feels too Oedipal to me. Like Harry's taken the place of his father and wants his mother(Ginny) now. Not that any of this matters because I still believe Harry won't "end up with" anyone in Book 7.

And, yeah, I'll admit I find New!Ginny to be mildly irritating. She has her moments and then she has moments when I want her to just go away. Like a little sister, naturally.