donnaimmaculata ([personal profile] donnaimmaculata) wrote2004-07-11 11:40 pm

How harmonious a group were MWPP?

Man in the Mirror, the fic I wrote for the [livejournal.com profile] mwppfqf, is based on an interpretation of MWPP as a group which had to fight more internal difficulties than generally assumed. Regardless whether one likes them and writes fun-oriented MWPP stories or whether one likes Snape and writes stories where MWPP gang rape all that moves, they are most often portrayed as a closed group. I think that from all we know about them, MWPP can be also interpreted in quite a different way.



While I am not as large a fan of MWPP as some people, I do read the occasional MWPP fic, mostly if in need of fun and fluff (the good sort of fluff, not the soppy one) in combination with some hot Sirius/Remus action. Most MWPP authors (at least all of those I read) portray Sirius, Remus, James and Peter as a closely knitted group of friends, who share secrets, beds and chocolate. While not necessarily equals (Sirius and James the trouble-making ring leaders, Remus the voice of reason, Peter the good and, most often, funny friend), they are all valuable and important members of the group. As I prefer Sirius/Remus centred fics, there is always the subtle shift of focus, from the close friendship bond between Sirius and James to the close not-merely-friendship between Sirius and Remus. I'm sure you all know what sort of MWPP stories I mean.

I have, however, begun to entertain the idea that MWPP, as a group, could have been highly dysfunctional, based on the personalities and personal histories of the members. I assume that they all shared the same dormitory at Hogwarts and that there was only the four of them in the dormitory. With James and Sirius being close friends, either since before Hogwarts, which is well possible if James came from a pure-blood family, or since their early days at school, this leaves Peter and Remus at the fringes of the group. Remus, however, is the one who eventually brought them together when his secret was revealed. I imagine James and Sirius being thrilled by the idea of having a werewolf friend. This still leaves Peter out. But it was probably safer to include Peter as part of the group and make him a co-conspirator than try to hide a secret of such proportions for the years to come. These are merely assumptions, of course, but since we don't know anything about how the friendship between the boys developed, these assumptions are as valid as any others.

Regardless on whether or not this scenario is true, the fact remains that James and Sirius were the core of the group, and Remus' being a werewolf was a major foundation of many of the group's activities. Their becoming Animagi made them, quite literarily, partners in crime. The creation of the Marauder's Map was only accomplished because they were Animagi. ("... well, highly exciting possibilities were open to us now that we could all transform. Soon we were leaving the Shrieking Shack and roaming the school grounds and the village by night. (...) And that's how we came to write the Marauder's Map, and sign it with our nicknames." Remus in PoA) Plus - on a side note - Peter would not have been able to fake his own death quite so successfully had it not been for the fact that he could turn into a rat. And Sirius would not have escaped Azkaban. It all comes down to Remus in the end! While I embrace all fics that show how close they were as boys, I also think that the flashback scene in OotP in particular opens the way to an entirely different interpretation. (Even though I am convinced, for reasons stated here, that the Pensieve is not an objective device and that what we saw in that scene is strongly tinted by Severus' personal feelings. But as I am not trying to evaluate MWPP with regard to Severus at this point, the Pensieve scene serves as means to analyse MWPP as a cohesive group.)

We don't know much about James, apart from his being talented, popular and arrogant. I assume that he was just a normal boy who happened to be carried away by his own cleverness and outgrew it when he got older. I know that there are those who think James was a borderline psychopath, and I don't want to question this point of view as it is based on experiences which differ from mine. I knew boys like James, and none of them grew up to be a psychopath or a sociopath. His attitude was, nevertheless, painfully arrogant, not merely towards Severus and other victims whom he used to hex in the corridors, but also towards Peter. "'How thick are you, Wormtail?' said James impatiently. 'You run with a werewolf once a month-'" In spite of (or maybe because of) Peters openly displayed admiration, James did not value Peter as a friend, as an equal. He liked Peter to provide the applause. Not a nice attitude, but not an unusual one. From what I know of him James was the most 'normal' one of the lot.

Sirius is a different matter. A concept which is also strongly supported by everything that we learn about him as an adult. Sirius was talented, probably popular (I'm not sure whether we ever hear anyone say that he was) and arrogant, but he had also a highly violent streak which James, apparently, lacked: He sent Snape after Remus, for reasons unknown, apart from what he said himself: "Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to ... hoping to get us expelled ..." (PoA). We might find out more about his motives, but so far they're not very satisfying. Sirius wanted to protect his friends from external danger and he didn't care much about the method. I want by no means justify what he did, but I want to point out that Sirius' behaviour indicates that he suffered from depressions already as teenager. From all that I know, adolescents suffering from depressions show any of the following symptoms: apathy, timidity and overly aggressive behaviour. While the first two don't apply (apathy might, to a certain degree), Sirius' willingness to hurt Severus - an act which Severus' 'main' adversary, James, didn't sanction - showed a capacity for violence which lies over the average. It also goes well with all that we know about Sirius as an adult (slashing the Fat Lady's portrait, his deranged behaviour in the Shrieking Shack...) as well as with all that we know about his upbringing. (On another side note: I feel that if I forgive Severus much of his behaviour towards his students (Harry, Neville, Hermione...) (not to mention his joining the Death Eaters) on account of his having been the victim of violence at school, I think it's only fair to forgive Sirius much of his behaviour towards fellow students on account of his growing up in a family who hated him.) In the flashback scene in OotP, we see Sirius being overly boisterous, bored and aggressive within a short space of time, which also supports the depressions theory.

I don't think that anyone really doubts that Sirius was not the easiest person to have around. While he was keen on protecting his friends from external influences, he wasn't really aware of what they wanted, and, first and foremost, he didn't care much about hurting them himself. "Put that away, will you, (...) before Wormtail here wets himself." Had Snape, or any other outsider said this, Sirius would have been after his blood. Not necessarily because he cared much about Peter's feelings, but because Peter was part of his group and as such taboo for external aggressors. I am tempted to say that he also disregarded Remus' feelings when saying, "I'm bored. (...) Wish it was full moon," because while full moon for him meant fun and adventure, for Remus it has never been an entirely pleasant experience. But seeing as Remus himself says in PoA that the company of the other three made his transformations "not only bearable but the best times of [his] life," I will let it pass.

In conclusion: Sirius was loyal to and protective of his friends when it came to external influences, but he was not necessarily very loyal and very protective within the group. (Or rather, he was loyal to James, but not to the others.) In a way, his behaviour very much equals Severus'-as-an-adult, who saves Harry's life time and again from external danger, but who is a nasty bastard in personal interactions.

Peter is a difficult character. Much has been said on Peter's not being a pathetic loser at all, and I wholeheartedly agree. Peter was cleverer and more capable than his friends, his teachers, and most readers give his credit for. (As recently discussed on a thread in [livejournal.com profile] pauraque's LJ here.) But the fact remains that his friends didn't value him particularly highly. Peter's problem was, basically, his lack of self-confidence, especially when contrasted against his more dashing, cleverer friends. This lead to his being overlooked by teachers, disregarded by James and Sirius (and, possibly, Remus) and, in final consequence, his turning to Voldemort, because he felt he needed the protection of someone much stronger and more capable than himself. Had he experienced more support on his friends/teachers part, he might have realised that he was fully capable of taking care of himself. As it was, his abilities have always been underestimated and undervalued, by others and by himself. From Peter's point of view, his friendship with Sirius and James in particular was not beneficial at all. I don't know to which extent he really admired James, but it is well possible that he exaggerated the degree of admiration in the hope that James (and Sirius) would like him better and take him more seriously as a friend.

Now to Remus. Remus is the character I identify myself most strongly with, because I show similar behaviour patterns and am generally put into the same category (i.e. the calm, quiet, reasonable one who is trusted to exercise control over the peer group). I thus imagine that I understand how this character works. For the sake of this theory, I assume that Remus was sort of dragged into the friendship by Sirius and James, and that he followed most willingly, because he has never had friends before and the feeling was exhilarating. Over the years, they found out about his secret and, by keeping silent on the matter, gave him freedom on the one hand, but imprisoned him on the other hand. Freedom is obvious: Remus didn't have to hide and sneak around and tell lies about sick relatives. Within his dormitory, in the Shrieking Shack and on their various adventures, he was free. But he was free only as long as it was only the four of them together. With possible witnesses around, there was always a considerable risk of disclosure. "'How thick are you, Wormtail? (...) You run round with a werewolf once a month-' - 'Keep your voice down,' implored Lupin." While some people read this scene as a friendly banter among good mates, I read it as Remus begging James to not reveal his secret . (Definition of "implore" - "to entreat; to beg; to pray," according to Webster's Dictionary.)

Remus lived in constant fear that his big-mouth friends would disclose his secret, not out of spite or because they wanted to get him in trouble, but because they thought it was funny and it was clever and it was a deliciously thrilling risk. How far can we go this time? How many werewolf jokes can we make? The others are all so stupid, they will never find out. Etc. I had such friends - even though not such a secret - and I know that I would cringe sometimes lest they should say something in public which was supposed to be strictly confidential. At the same time, he had to exercise control over them, while fully aware that it a) was futile and b) would additionally provoke Sirius and James.

So while I think that MWPP functioned well as a group in the eyes of others, they weren't necessarily such an inherently harmonious group as one could wish. Sirius and Remus' reminiscence in OotP when confronted by Harry shows that they have fond memories of that time, but since one of them has just spent 12 years in a soul-killing prison and the other never had friends before school and has been "shunned all [his] adult life, unable to find paid work" (Remus in PoA), I don't think they are entirely objective and the memories of their school years are probably the best ones they've got in any case.

An additional aspect includes the external circumstances: It has been stated several times throughout the series that "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great," (Dumbledore's speech, GoF). It is also stated that during that time, no-one knew friend from foe and that people distrusted each other. Sirius, James, Remus and Peter were at school at precisely that time, and I thinks it's reasonable to assume that, considering everything, they had to face similar trust issues and suspensions of friendship like Harry, Ron and Hermione did in PoA (Crookshanks vs. Scabbers) and GoF (Ron vs. Harry).

I still like them. And I'd shag haughtily-bored-yet-handsome Sirius anytime.

[identity profile] tammaiya.livejournal.com 2004-07-12 06:13 am (UTC)(link)
... *applause*
I always find it really interesting when people analyse canon for their fandom. *is such an english-student nerd* I find everything you've said there really interesting, and I agree with a lot of it too. One thing I've found in particular, from my own experience at least, is that small friendship groups that are very close and have known each other for years are more likely to get over their problems but their problems are probably worse anyway. I've been friends with the same people for about 10 years now, so... yes. On a side note I've always thought that Harry should have more psychological problems with what he's gone through, actually. They never seem to have those deep and meaningful talks that close friends generally do. ^^;

[identity profile] mimine.livejournal.com 2004-07-12 07:12 am (UTC)(link)
Very interesting analysis. You do know in which parts I disagree of course but it doesn't matter. :-D

With James and Sirius being close friends, either since before Hogwarts, which is well possible if James came from a pure-blood family, or since their early days at school, this leaves Peter and Remus at the fringes of the group.

I really doubt that considering Sirius' background he might have been familiar with the Potters. Everything about James would indicate that he came from a liberal family as far as Muggleborns are concerned. I can buy Sirius changing what he had been taught to believe at home (assuming some of those Blacks who've been burned out of the tapestry hadn't tried to influence him before) but not both of them. Therefore it would be a bit unlikely that the Potters and the Blacks might have been friends. On the other hand, since it's safe to assume both families were rich it is a possibility regardless of political affinities. I just think it's more likely that they met in Hogwarts and James taught Sirius how to be a good Gryffindor.

On to Peter....

"This lead to his being overlooked by teachers, disregarded by James and Sirius (and, possibly, Remus) and, in final consequence, his turning to Voldemort, because he felt he needed the protection of someone much stronger and more capable than himself."

I won't pretend to understand him, what I do know is that I like him a lot more after OotP. I don't think it was merely self preservation even though he has proven that his hide is what he values above all. I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't pent up hatred about the way the others treated him, esp. James. Thin line between love and hate and all. And that idiot James never had a clue until the end...

[identity profile] mincot.livejournal.com 2004-07-12 09:31 am (UTC)(link)
Very interesting analysis! Would you be interested in reposting At Godric's HAt? We're just getting started, and are interested in genfic, but also in discussing building up a library of good character analyses. http://p070.ezboard.com/bgodricshat
ceilidh: (Sirius (seviet))

[personal profile] ceilidh 2004-07-12 09:45 am (UTC)(link)
(On another side note: I feel that if I forgive Severus much of his behaviour towards his students (Harry, Neville, Hermione...) (not to mention his joining the Death Eaters) on account of his having been the victim of violence at school, I think it's only fair to forgive Sirius much of his behaviour towards fellow students on account of his growing up in a family who hated him.)

Amen.

I'm such a Sirius fangirl, I can't help it, and I felt horribly for him when I learned about his awful homelife. I mean, even Harry's parents loved him. He can't remember it, but they did, even though his aunt and uncle hate him. The people that gave BIRTH to Sirius hated him. *wibble*

When children are young, that is when they learn their basic social skills (preschool, elementary age), so by the time Sirius got to Hogwarts he had no real social skills and no real concept of how to relate to people at all in a normal way. It doesn't excuse his behavior at ALL, but it does explain it. And he never got better after that, because not long after school was Azkaban, and... yeah. He never really had a chance.

[identity profile] agatha-s.livejournal.com 2004-07-12 10:51 am (UTC)(link)
I followed the link here from Daily Snitch.
I agree with your analysis - I see the Marauders' friendship as troubled and dysfunctional. In addition to everything you mentioned, there's the fact that James chose Sirius to be both the best man at his wedding and Harry's godfather. If it was an equal friendship of four people he would have chosen Remus or Peter for one of these roles. And then he again chose Sirius to be his Secret Keeper, and if I remember it correctly, they only switched to Peter because nobody would expect that he was the person trusted with the secret. I can understand if Peter was hurt and insulted by that and if that feeling led to his betrayal.

[identity profile] donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com 2004-07-12 10:58 am (UTC)(link)
Thank you *bows*

I love reading other people's analyses and views on fandom-related issues in general and characters in particular. In a way, it's a form of dealing with my own school trauma: I had several teachers who wouldn't accept any interpretation of literature that disagreed with their own. The fandom shows that there are as many different opinions as there are readers, and that you can read one and the same character in countless different ways, and I love it. So, literature-student nerd, I suppose *g*

The problem of close groups of friends, or cliques, is that outsiders tend to regard them as inherently harmonious, even though they often aren't. I do think that MWPP were good enough friends, but there was a huge potential for dysfunctionality within their relationship. And this is what makes it interesting.

I've always thought that Harry should have more psychological problems with what he's gone through

This is true. He is right messed up. But with his upbringing, he has never learned to communicate his feelings to others, and none of the adults seems to care. Ron and Hermione have never really been in the position to understand his problems. Well, Hermione is certainly getting there now. But I fear that it's too late for Harry to learn how to confide in others. Poor dear.

[identity profile] fernwithy.livejournal.com 2004-07-12 10:59 am (UTC)(link)
An excellent essay!

I particularly appreciated your comments on Sirius's behavior--I agree that he is always portrayed as not quite right emotionally, and your analysis of his behavior in the Pensieve is dead on. I'm not sure I'd be so quick to forgive his "I wish it were the full moon," as it's obvious by Remus's behavior that his fond memories of it years later may be a bit exaggerated. Let's remember, what he's essentially said is, "Gee, I wish your chronic illness were in an acute phase right now."

[identity profile] donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com 2004-07-12 11:10 am (UTC)(link)
You do know in which parts I disagree of course but it doesn't matter. :-D

I do. I realise that my view is harsh from your perspective, but it's based on my experiences. And I'm so Lupin, like OMG! *g*

I just think it's more likely that they met in Hogwarts and James taught Sirius how to be a good Gryffindor.

I think I read a fic somewhere where they hated each other at the beginning, which is well possible. I'm not sure how much the Blacks who got kicked out of the family could have influenced Sirius, because they were probably not often guests in his mother's house. Anyway, Sirius was probably strongly influenced by James (and vice versa), but he had also to fight against the influence of his family on his life, which has always been present. I know it's not an excuse for anything he did, but it is an attempt at the explanation of his motives.

I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't pent up hatred about the way the others treated him, esp. James.

Yes, this is true, I should have mentioned it. I do believe that Peter truly admired James and that he has been trying to make James like him by making this admiration obvious. I'm sure James' treatment of him lead to pent-up aggressions. But at first, I imagine, Peter began doubting his own abilities. In a way, Peter behaves like a woman married to an abusive husband, thinking that if she's nice he will stop beating her one day. And then, one day it she who snaps.

[identity profile] donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com 2004-07-12 11:11 am (UTC)(link)
Thank you! Would you be interested in reposting At Godric's Hat? Sure, will do. *is very flattered* I will edit out my personal side notes, though, before I do.

[identity profile] donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com 2004-07-12 11:20 am (UTC)(link)
I like Sirius, too, and I think that he is quite undervalued by many readers (and I don't mean those who just plain hate him). From all that we know from his behaviour in GoF in the first place, but also from the background information we got in PoA, Sirius could have been quite a huge asset for the Order if only they had let him and hadn't locked him up in that horrible house to deal with his horrible memories all by himself. He never really had a chance, the poor man, and still, he was trying so hard. I greatly appreciate the fact that Sirius was the only adult in OotP who took Harry's issues seriously and genuinely tried to help. He was the only one who wanted Harry to have information on Voldemort and supported his idea to practise Defense against the Dark Arts. Whether or not encouraging Harry to form DA was a sign of recklessness is immaterial - Sirius, in spite of not really knowing Harry, realised that Harry would try to get information and carry out his plans in any case. Something that Dumbledore conveniently overlooked.

But, I'm sure you know that all yourself *g*
ceilidh: (Sirius (seviet))

[personal profile] ceilidh 2004-07-12 11:26 am (UTC)(link)
Sirius could have been quite a huge asset for the Order if only they had let him and hadn't locked him up in that horrible house to deal with his horrible memories all by himself.

I totally agree. He seems to be fairly intelligent, and managed to hide all through PoA and GoF without getting caught, so I'm sure there is plenty he could have done for the Order. I don't think anyone in the Order really knew how to deal with him (including Remus) and I think that a lot of that was because of guilt on their parts - knowing he was innocent and yet he was in prison for 12 years.

Sirius was the only adult in OotP who took Harry's issues seriously and genuinely tried to help.

YES! He might sometimes have tried to imprint his memories of James onto Harry (and after being around soul sucking dementors for a dozen years it's understandable IMO) but he was the only one who had any faith that Harry was mature enough to know what was going on, and imo Harry was. He never coddled Harry.

[identity profile] donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com 2004-07-12 11:30 am (UTC)(link)
there's the fact that James chose Sirius to be both the best man at his wedding and Harry's godfather

That's true. This certainly supports the canon evidence that they were the ones who were really close.

I think the story about how they switched from Sirius to Peter as Secret Keeper it told only once in canon, in the Shrieking Shack scene. Sirius says that he "thought it was the perfect plan... a bluff... Voldemort (...) would never dream they'd use a weak, talentless thing like [Peter]." Of course, in that scene, Sirius is driven by his hatred for Peter, but he voices what everybody's been taught to think: that Peter is weak and pathetic. As this seems to be his (and James') general opinion, it really is no great surprise that Peter was indeed hurt and began to harbour hateful thoughts against James and Sirius.

[identity profile] donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com 2004-07-12 11:41 am (UTC)(link)
Thank you!

I think that from all we know about Sirius, it is safe to assume that he was not merely difficult but was suffering from a psychological condition.

Let's remember, what he's essentially said is, "Gee, I wish your chronic illness were in an acute phase right now."he who makes the depreciating remarks first, others will assume that it is no big deal for him and won't try to hurt him by throwing werewolf insults into his face. That's at least how I see Remus.

[identity profile] donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com 2004-07-12 11:42 am (UTC)(link)
And I usually know how to close the italics tag. But not today, it seems.

[identity profile] donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com 2004-07-12 11:53 am (UTC)(link)
His being intelligent is canonical: Minerva says so herself during her conversation with Fudge, Rosmerta and Hagrid, and Minerva has high standards. He is certainly very recourceful. In GoF, he is not only on the run, he also cares for a Hippogriff (not the easiest animal to handle) and cares for Harry on a very personal level: Sirius tries to help him stay alive, but he also listens to Harry's troubles with Ron while speaking through the fireplace of a wizarding family into whose house he broke in. This shows a great capacity for empathy; Sirius realises what's really important for Harry and offers the best support he can under the circumstances.

After having sent him on the run for one year, it was really stupid on Dumbledore's part to imprison Sirius in that house. He had proved that he was capable of taking care of himself and not taking too many risks well enough. Hmph!

I'm not perfectly convinced that Sirius really confused Harry with James. We are told so by Molly, but we are never actually shown it. (And I don't think Molly is the most reliable source here, emotional as she is about the whole affair.) He says on one point that Harry was less like James than he thought, but virtually every adult compares Harry to James at some point. And I also think that Harry was mature enough to bear the truth. He had fought Voldemort face to face, after all. Nothing the adults could have told him could have destroy a greater part of his childhood than being tortured did.

But I'm getting carried away. I've been planning to write an "I like Sirius Black" essay in any case *g*

[identity profile] mimine.livejournal.com 2004-07-12 12:06 pm (UTC)(link)
Nah. Not harsh. In fact I agree with everything you say about Sirius and most about Peter. I won't get into the other two at all, I can already feel my blood pressure rising. Though can't help noticing that James had a decent loving family as far as we can tell and still was a repulsive bully

But I will say that I'm sick of the whole Snape/Sirius comparison and who had a crappier life and should get away with more. As kids I could argue that "sucky life at home and merciless bullying at school " rather beats "sucky life at home and wonderful friends at school". Although to be fair we don't know for a fact that Snape had a bad home life, I had a fairly decent home life and can remember plenty of instances of my parents yelling at each other and me crying in a corner.

But as adults we have those 12 years in Azkaban vs. vague DE stuff, vague redemption, a job (even if it was in Hogwarts, Snape's equivalent of Grimmauld place in terms of what it has done to him emotionaly) and dealing with Potter. Sirius is definitely allowed to be more fucked up as an adult.

[identity profile] donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com 2004-07-12 12:25 pm (UTC)(link)
I won't get into the other two at all, I can already feel my blood pressure rising.

As I don't care much about James either way, I can't be bothered to discuss him at length in any case. And as to Remus... He is such a dear cutie and I love him to pieces!!!11 I don't have anything to add.

You know that I like Severus, too, and I am not trying to say who's more justified in being completely messed up. I just think that there are parallels between them, and therefore, for me, they are too similar to hate the one and love the other. But, that's me.

I think the point is that I don't identify myself so strongly with any of those characters as you do, and have therefore a different approach to them. We tend to like/approve of the behaviour we understand. Since my range of experience doesn't cover that of Severus and Sirius, I know them from the outside only, if you know what I mean. In my opinion, this whole character-interpretation business comes down to personal experiences.

I like Remus because he shows behaviour patterns similar to mine. I realise that he lies and that he dodges responsibility, but, sad as it is, this method of dealing with unpleasant things resembles mine more than Severus' method. I don't say it's better, but it's something I understand on a very emotional basis. Whereas I don't understand Sirius and Severus on emotional basis, because I've never been there.

See? I lied right there in the first paragraph of this comment, when I said I didn't have anything to add to the subject of Remus...

[identity profile] mimine.livejournal.com 2004-07-12 12:42 pm (UTC)(link)
I hate dishonesty more than I could ever explain. That in Remus makes my stomach turn. And it really wouldn't be such a violent reaction to him I suppose if I hadn't started out rather liking him. He bored me a bit and there was the whole "sweet Remus" fanon to which I fell prey.

But then OotP came and I saw his passive aggressive crap and how it had really been with his oh, so great friends and how he did nothing about it... It just disgusted me. Even Peter whom everyone despised did something. Remus just stood there and let it all happen and when all these years later he got a shot at doing something in his life he just did exactly what he'd been doing all along. Nothing! He just stood there while Harry was in danger for all he knew and hoped it would all go away!!! In short, you'll find me in a corner cheering when Peter gets to use that ominous silver hand of his on Remus and JKR cries her eyes out about killing yet another favourite.

As for you, I like you too much to think you really are anything like Remus :-p

[identity profile] donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com 2004-07-12 12:54 pm (UTC)(link)
As for you, I like you too much to think you really are anything like Remus :-p

Heh! Thanks! It would be very sad indeed if you began to hate me.

I was being polemic, of course, as I'm sure you realise.

I fully understand your reaction to Remus, intellectually. But my instinct prompts me to not so much justify, but to understand his actions. OK, I take my responsibilities more seriously than he does, but it is an effort sometimes, and I understand the impulse to simply ignore trouble and walk away from problems. In a way, Remus personifies the mistakes I have. Even though they are more pronounced in him than they are in me.

I am convinced he will die in any case, so you will get the chance to cheer in the corner ;-) And I shall not hate you for it.

[identity profile] schnitzel1377.livejournal.com 2004-07-12 12:56 pm (UTC)(link)
Got here through daily_snitch, and you don't know me, but *word* on Sirius being depressed. I've often thought the same thing, especially with his agressive behaviour, which tends to manifest in boys suffering from depression. Wonderful essay.

[identity profile] mimine.livejournal.com 2004-07-12 01:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh dear... this came as I was about to erase that comment... so be it, I made it, it's there, there's no point now...

Even though they are more pronounced in him than they are in me.

Of course they are! He's a fictional character. I identify very strongly with Snape and to a large extent with Sirius but they are way too fucked up and miserable. It hasn't really been that horrible to me. And as much as I enjoy Snape being snapish my snapishness is very rarely allowed to come out. And as much as I love him, I also love Neville who is his victim and Ron who hates him and several other characters all very different with each other.

It would have been much easier if I hated, say, Dumbledore. It would be nothing new, there are strong anti-D feelings throughout fandom. I'd be in good company. But Remus? Everybody's darling? The oh so tragic and sexy wolfie? And the Snupin! Don't get me started on the Snupin! One more fic with Nursemaid!Snape comforting poor Remus about Sirius' death and I just might kill someone.

I'm sorry. I really was joking about the Remus comment, as for cheering when he dies, it will all depend on whether Snape will have survived him. If Snape is (argh, NO!) dead Remus dying will definitely not be enough to cheer me up.

[identity profile] donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com 2004-07-12 01:20 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you. I'm glad you found your way here and that you liked the essay.

especially with his agressive behaviour, which tends to manifest in boys suffering from depression

Yes, exactly. Sirius never really had a chance,being quite messed up right from the start.

[identity profile] donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com 2004-07-12 01:37 pm (UTC)(link)
I got the notification about the comment, so erasing it would have been futile in any case *g*

Ah, the wonders of online communication! Emoticons alone get you only so far. But thank god we understand each other even though we disagree on certain preferences/aversions.

One more fic with Nursemaid!Snape comforting poor Remus about Sirius' death and I just might kill someone.

I like Snupin as such. But it can go horribly wrong. (Then again, that is true for all pairings.)

Nursemaid!Snape is horrible, but what I really hate is when they're forced into a buddy-movie dynamics, with Snape being the grumpy, morose one and Remus the chattering idiot. Remus as the donkey to Severus' Shrek, the Buzz Lightyear to Severus' Cowboy Woody, the Eddie Murphy to... everyone, really.

[identity profile] mimine.livejournal.com 2004-07-12 01:46 pm (UTC)(link)
Notifications... sneaky buggers... Wouldn't have left it at that. I'm just not too happy about exposing myself in such a public post again even though I do get a secret thrill out of saying bad things about Remus (I'm sad)

I don't think I have caught much of buddy cop Snape. I think there's been more of that in Snack. I just don't get that Snack dynamic of having Sirius be dumb. The hell? SIrius is not dumb. Sure, after 12 years in Azkaban some wizarding developments must have passed him by but in general he is very smart, possibly smarter than Snape.

I don't hate all Snupin I must admit. Once in a blue moon there is a fic that's just right Lately I just can't get Bernice's "Wolf in sheep's Clothing" out of my mind. Every time I think of that fic I shiver.
pauraque: bird flying (peter by snaples)

[personal profile] pauraque 2004-07-12 01:56 pm (UTC)(link)
In a way, Peter behaves like a woman married to an abusive husband, thinking that if she's nice he will stop beating her one day.

I've enjoyed reading the whole discussion here, but this point is particularly wonderful!

I've friended you, hope you don't mind.

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