How harmonious a group were MWPP?
Jul. 11th, 2004 11:40 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
donnaimmaculataMan in the Mirror, the fic I wrote for the ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
mwppfqf, is based on an interpretation of MWPP as a group which had to fight more internal difficulties than generally assumed. Regardless whether one likes them and writes fun-oriented MWPP stories or whether one likes Snape and writes stories where MWPP gang rape all that moves, they are most often portrayed as a closed group. I think that from all we know about them, MWPP can be also interpreted in quite a different way.
While I am not as large a fan of MWPP as some people, I do read the occasional MWPP fic, mostly if in need of fun and fluff (the good sort of fluff, not the soppy one) in combination with some hot Sirius/Remus action. Most MWPP authors (at least all of those I read) portray Sirius, Remus, James and Peter as a closely knitted group of friends, who share secrets, beds and chocolate. While not necessarily equals (Sirius and James the trouble-making ring leaders, Remus the voice of reason, Peter the good and, most often, funny friend), they are all valuable and important members of the group. As I prefer Sirius/Remus centred fics, there is always the subtle shift of focus, from the close friendship bond between Sirius and James to the close not-merely-friendship between Sirius and Remus. I'm sure you all know what sort of MWPP stories I mean.
I have, however, begun to entertain the idea that MWPP, as a group, could have been highly dysfunctional, based on the personalities and personal histories of the members. I assume that they all shared the same dormitory at Hogwarts and that there was only the four of them in the dormitory. With James and Sirius being close friends, either since before Hogwarts, which is well possible if James came from a pure-blood family, or since their early days at school, this leaves Peter and Remus at the fringes of the group. Remus, however, is the one who eventually brought them together when his secret was revealed. I imagine James and Sirius being thrilled by the idea of having a werewolf friend. This still leaves Peter out. But it was probably safer to include Peter as part of the group and make him a co-conspirator than try to hide a secret of such proportions for the years to come. These are merely assumptions, of course, but since we don't know anything about how the friendship between the boys developed, these assumptions are as valid as any others.
Regardless on whether or not this scenario is true, the fact remains that James and Sirius were the core of the group, and Remus' being a werewolf was a major foundation of many of the group's activities. Their becoming Animagi made them, quite literarily, partners in crime. The creation of the Marauder's Map was only accomplished because they were Animagi. ("... well, highly exciting possibilities were open to us now that we could all transform. Soon we were leaving the Shrieking Shack and roaming the school grounds and the village by night. (...) And that's how we came to write the Marauder's Map, and sign it with our nicknames." Remus in PoA) Plus - on a side note - Peter would not have been able to fake his own death quite so successfully had it not been for the fact that he could turn into a rat. And Sirius would not have escaped Azkaban. It all comes down to Remus in the end! While I embrace all fics that show how close they were as boys, I also think that the flashback scene in OotP in particular opens the way to an entirely different interpretation. (Even though I am convinced, for reasons stated here, that the Pensieve is not an objective device and that what we saw in that scene is strongly tinted by Severus' personal feelings. But as I am not trying to evaluate MWPP with regard to Severus at this point, the Pensieve scene serves as means to analyse MWPP as a cohesive group.)
We don't know much about James, apart from his being talented, popular and arrogant. I assume that he was just a normal boy who happened to be carried away by his own cleverness and outgrew it when he got older. I know that there are those who think James was a borderline psychopath, and I don't want to question this point of view as it is based on experiences which differ from mine. I knew boys like James, and none of them grew up to be a psychopath or a sociopath. His attitude was, nevertheless, painfully arrogant, not merely towards Severus and other victims whom he used to hex in the corridors, but also towards Peter. "'How thick are you, Wormtail?' said James impatiently. 'You run with a werewolf once a month-'" In spite of (or maybe because of) Peters openly displayed admiration, James did not value Peter as a friend, as an equal. He liked Peter to provide the applause. Not a nice attitude, but not an unusual one. From what I know of him James was the most 'normal' one of the lot.
Sirius is a different matter. A concept which is also strongly supported by everything that we learn about him as an adult. Sirius was talented, probably popular (I'm not sure whether we ever hear anyone say that he was) and arrogant, but he had also a highly violent streak which James, apparently, lacked: He sent Snape after Remus, for reasons unknown, apart from what he said himself: "Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to ... hoping to get us expelled ..." (PoA). We might find out more about his motives, but so far they're not very satisfying. Sirius wanted to protect his friends from external danger and he didn't care much about the method. I want by no means justify what he did, but I want to point out that Sirius' behaviour indicates that he suffered from depressions already as teenager. From all that I know, adolescents suffering from depressions show any of the following symptoms: apathy, timidity and overly aggressive behaviour. While the first two don't apply (apathy might, to a certain degree), Sirius' willingness to hurt Severus - an act which Severus' 'main' adversary, James, didn't sanction - showed a capacity for violence which lies over the average. It also goes well with all that we know about Sirius as an adult (slashing the Fat Lady's portrait, his deranged behaviour in the Shrieking Shack...) as well as with all that we know about his upbringing. (On another side note: I feel that if I forgive Severus much of his behaviour towards his students (Harry, Neville, Hermione...) (not to mention his joining the Death Eaters) on account of his having been the victim of violence at school, I think it's only fair to forgive Sirius much of his behaviour towards fellow students on account of his growing up in a family who hated him.) In the flashback scene in OotP, we see Sirius being overly boisterous, bored and aggressive within a short space of time, which also supports the depressions theory.
I don't think that anyone really doubts that Sirius was not the easiest person to have around. While he was keen on protecting his friends from external influences, he wasn't really aware of what they wanted, and, first and foremost, he didn't care much about hurting them himself. "Put that away, will you, (...) before Wormtail here wets himself." Had Snape, or any other outsider said this, Sirius would have been after his blood. Not necessarily because he cared much about Peter's feelings, but because Peter was part of his group and as such taboo for external aggressors. I am tempted to say that he also disregarded Remus' feelings when saying, "I'm bored. (...) Wish it was full moon," because while full moon for him meant fun and adventure, for Remus it has never been an entirely pleasant experience. But seeing as Remus himself says in PoA that the company of the other three made his transformations "not only bearable but the best times of [his] life," I will let it pass.
In conclusion: Sirius was loyal to and protective of his friends when it came to external influences, but he was not necessarily very loyal and very protective within the group. (Or rather, he was loyal to James, but not to the others.) In a way, his behaviour very much equals Severus'-as-an-adult, who saves Harry's life time and again from external danger, but who is a nasty bastard in personal interactions.
Peter is a difficult character. Much has been said on Peter's not being a pathetic loser at all, and I wholeheartedly agree. Peter was cleverer and more capable than his friends, his teachers, and most readers give his credit for. (As recently discussed on a thread in![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
pauraque's LJ here.) But the fact remains that his friends didn't value him particularly highly. Peter's problem was, basically, his lack of self-confidence, especially when contrasted against his more dashing, cleverer friends. This lead to his being overlooked by teachers, disregarded by James and Sirius (and, possibly, Remus) and, in final consequence, his turning to Voldemort, because he felt he needed the protection of someone much stronger and more capable than himself. Had he experienced more support on his friends/teachers part, he might have realised that he was fully capable of taking care of himself. As it was, his abilities have always been underestimated and undervalued, by others and by himself. From Peter's point of view, his friendship with Sirius and James in particular was not beneficial at all. I don't know to which extent he really admired James, but it is well possible that he exaggerated the degree of admiration in the hope that James (and Sirius) would like him better and take him more seriously as a friend.
Now to Remus. Remus is the character I identify myself most strongly with, because I show similar behaviour patterns and am generally put into the same category (i.e. the calm, quiet, reasonable one who is trusted to exercise control over the peer group). I thus imagine that I understand how this character works. For the sake of this theory, I assume that Remus was sort of dragged into the friendship by Sirius and James, and that he followed most willingly, because he has never had friends before and the feeling was exhilarating. Over the years, they found out about his secret and, by keeping silent on the matter, gave him freedom on the one hand, but imprisoned him on the other hand. Freedom is obvious: Remus didn't have to hide and sneak around and tell lies about sick relatives. Within his dormitory, in the Shrieking Shack and on their various adventures, he was free. But he was free only as long as it was only the four of them together. With possible witnesses around, there was always a considerable risk of disclosure. "'How thick are you, Wormtail? (...) You run round with a werewolf once a month-' - 'Keep your voice down,' implored Lupin." While some people read this scene as a friendly banter among good mates, I read it as Remus begging James to not reveal his secret . (Definition of "implore" - "to entreat; to beg; to pray," according to Webster's Dictionary.)
Remus lived in constant fear that his big-mouth friends would disclose his secret, not out of spite or because they wanted to get him in trouble, but because they thought it was funny and it was clever and it was a deliciously thrilling risk. How far can we go this time? How many werewolf jokes can we make? The others are all so stupid, they will never find out. Etc. I had such friends - even though not such a secret - and I know that I would cringe sometimes lest they should say something in public which was supposed to be strictly confidential. At the same time, he had to exercise control over them, while fully aware that it a) was futile and b) would additionally provoke Sirius and James.
So while I think that MWPP functioned well as a group in the eyes of others, they weren't necessarily such an inherently harmonious group as one could wish. Sirius and Remus' reminiscence in OotP when confronted by Harry shows that they have fond memories of that time, but since one of them has just spent 12 years in a soul-killing prison and the other never had friends before school and has been "shunned all [his] adult life, unable to find paid work" (Remus in PoA), I don't think they are entirely objective and the memories of their school years are probably the best ones they've got in any case.
An additional aspect includes the external circumstances: It has been stated several times throughout the series that "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great," (Dumbledore's speech, GoF). It is also stated that during that time, no-one knew friend from foe and that people distrusted each other. Sirius, James, Remus and Peter were at school at precisely that time, and I thinks it's reasonable to assume that, considering everything, they had to face similar trust issues and suspensions of friendship like Harry, Ron and Hermione did in PoA (Crookshanks vs. Scabbers) and GoF (Ron vs. Harry).
I still like them. And I'd shag haughtily-bored-yet-handsome Sirius anytime.
mwppfqf, is based on an interpretation of MWPP as a group which had to fight more internal difficulties than generally assumed. Regardless whether one likes them and writes fun-oriented MWPP stories or whether one likes Snape and writes stories where MWPP gang rape all that moves, they are most often portrayed as a closed group. I think that from all we know about them, MWPP can be also interpreted in quite a different way. While I am not as large a fan of MWPP as some people, I do read the occasional MWPP fic, mostly if in need of fun and fluff (the good sort of fluff, not the soppy one) in combination with some hot Sirius/Remus action. Most MWPP authors (at least all of those I read) portray Sirius, Remus, James and Peter as a closely knitted group of friends, who share secrets, beds and chocolate. While not necessarily equals (Sirius and James the trouble-making ring leaders, Remus the voice of reason, Peter the good and, most often, funny friend), they are all valuable and important members of the group. As I prefer Sirius/Remus centred fics, there is always the subtle shift of focus, from the close friendship bond between Sirius and James to the close not-merely-friendship between Sirius and Remus. I'm sure you all know what sort of MWPP stories I mean.
I have, however, begun to entertain the idea that MWPP, as a group, could have been highly dysfunctional, based on the personalities and personal histories of the members. I assume that they all shared the same dormitory at Hogwarts and that there was only the four of them in the dormitory. With James and Sirius being close friends, either since before Hogwarts, which is well possible if James came from a pure-blood family, or since their early days at school, this leaves Peter and Remus at the fringes of the group. Remus, however, is the one who eventually brought them together when his secret was revealed. I imagine James and Sirius being thrilled by the idea of having a werewolf friend. This still leaves Peter out. But it was probably safer to include Peter as part of the group and make him a co-conspirator than try to hide a secret of such proportions for the years to come. These are merely assumptions, of course, but since we don't know anything about how the friendship between the boys developed, these assumptions are as valid as any others.
Regardless on whether or not this scenario is true, the fact remains that James and Sirius were the core of the group, and Remus' being a werewolf was a major foundation of many of the group's activities. Their becoming Animagi made them, quite literarily, partners in crime. The creation of the Marauder's Map was only accomplished because they were Animagi. ("... well, highly exciting possibilities were open to us now that we could all transform. Soon we were leaving the Shrieking Shack and roaming the school grounds and the village by night. (...) And that's how we came to write the Marauder's Map, and sign it with our nicknames." Remus in PoA) Plus - on a side note - Peter would not have been able to fake his own death quite so successfully had it not been for the fact that he could turn into a rat. And Sirius would not have escaped Azkaban. It all comes down to Remus in the end! While I embrace all fics that show how close they were as boys, I also think that the flashback scene in OotP in particular opens the way to an entirely different interpretation. (Even though I am convinced, for reasons stated here, that the Pensieve is not an objective device and that what we saw in that scene is strongly tinted by Severus' personal feelings. But as I am not trying to evaluate MWPP with regard to Severus at this point, the Pensieve scene serves as means to analyse MWPP as a cohesive group.)
We don't know much about James, apart from his being talented, popular and arrogant. I assume that he was just a normal boy who happened to be carried away by his own cleverness and outgrew it when he got older. I know that there are those who think James was a borderline psychopath, and I don't want to question this point of view as it is based on experiences which differ from mine. I knew boys like James, and none of them grew up to be a psychopath or a sociopath. His attitude was, nevertheless, painfully arrogant, not merely towards Severus and other victims whom he used to hex in the corridors, but also towards Peter. "'How thick are you, Wormtail?' said James impatiently. 'You run with a werewolf once a month-'" In spite of (or maybe because of) Peters openly displayed admiration, James did not value Peter as a friend, as an equal. He liked Peter to provide the applause. Not a nice attitude, but not an unusual one. From what I know of him James was the most 'normal' one of the lot.
Sirius is a different matter. A concept which is also strongly supported by everything that we learn about him as an adult. Sirius was talented, probably popular (I'm not sure whether we ever hear anyone say that he was) and arrogant, but he had also a highly violent streak which James, apparently, lacked: He sent Snape after Remus, for reasons unknown, apart from what he said himself: "Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to ... hoping to get us expelled ..." (PoA). We might find out more about his motives, but so far they're not very satisfying. Sirius wanted to protect his friends from external danger and he didn't care much about the method. I want by no means justify what he did, but I want to point out that Sirius' behaviour indicates that he suffered from depressions already as teenager. From all that I know, adolescents suffering from depressions show any of the following symptoms: apathy, timidity and overly aggressive behaviour. While the first two don't apply (apathy might, to a certain degree), Sirius' willingness to hurt Severus - an act which Severus' 'main' adversary, James, didn't sanction - showed a capacity for violence which lies over the average. It also goes well with all that we know about Sirius as an adult (slashing the Fat Lady's portrait, his deranged behaviour in the Shrieking Shack...) as well as with all that we know about his upbringing. (On another side note: I feel that if I forgive Severus much of his behaviour towards his students (Harry, Neville, Hermione...) (not to mention his joining the Death Eaters) on account of his having been the victim of violence at school, I think it's only fair to forgive Sirius much of his behaviour towards fellow students on account of his growing up in a family who hated him.) In the flashback scene in OotP, we see Sirius being overly boisterous, bored and aggressive within a short space of time, which also supports the depressions theory.
I don't think that anyone really doubts that Sirius was not the easiest person to have around. While he was keen on protecting his friends from external influences, he wasn't really aware of what they wanted, and, first and foremost, he didn't care much about hurting them himself. "Put that away, will you, (...) before Wormtail here wets himself." Had Snape, or any other outsider said this, Sirius would have been after his blood. Not necessarily because he cared much about Peter's feelings, but because Peter was part of his group and as such taboo for external aggressors. I am tempted to say that he also disregarded Remus' feelings when saying, "I'm bored. (...) Wish it was full moon," because while full moon for him meant fun and adventure, for Remus it has never been an entirely pleasant experience. But seeing as Remus himself says in PoA that the company of the other three made his transformations "not only bearable but the best times of [his] life," I will let it pass.
In conclusion: Sirius was loyal to and protective of his friends when it came to external influences, but he was not necessarily very loyal and very protective within the group. (Or rather, he was loyal to James, but not to the others.) In a way, his behaviour very much equals Severus'-as-an-adult, who saves Harry's life time and again from external danger, but who is a nasty bastard in personal interactions.
Peter is a difficult character. Much has been said on Peter's not being a pathetic loser at all, and I wholeheartedly agree. Peter was cleverer and more capable than his friends, his teachers, and most readers give his credit for. (As recently discussed on a thread in
pauraque's LJ here.) But the fact remains that his friends didn't value him particularly highly. Peter's problem was, basically, his lack of self-confidence, especially when contrasted against his more dashing, cleverer friends. This lead to his being overlooked by teachers, disregarded by James and Sirius (and, possibly, Remus) and, in final consequence, his turning to Voldemort, because he felt he needed the protection of someone much stronger and more capable than himself. Had he experienced more support on his friends/teachers part, he might have realised that he was fully capable of taking care of himself. As it was, his abilities have always been underestimated and undervalued, by others and by himself. From Peter's point of view, his friendship with Sirius and James in particular was not beneficial at all. I don't know to which extent he really admired James, but it is well possible that he exaggerated the degree of admiration in the hope that James (and Sirius) would like him better and take him more seriously as a friend. Now to Remus. Remus is the character I identify myself most strongly with, because I show similar behaviour patterns and am generally put into the same category (i.e. the calm, quiet, reasonable one who is trusted to exercise control over the peer group). I thus imagine that I understand how this character works. For the sake of this theory, I assume that Remus was sort of dragged into the friendship by Sirius and James, and that he followed most willingly, because he has never had friends before and the feeling was exhilarating. Over the years, they found out about his secret and, by keeping silent on the matter, gave him freedom on the one hand, but imprisoned him on the other hand. Freedom is obvious: Remus didn't have to hide and sneak around and tell lies about sick relatives. Within his dormitory, in the Shrieking Shack and on their various adventures, he was free. But he was free only as long as it was only the four of them together. With possible witnesses around, there was always a considerable risk of disclosure. "'How thick are you, Wormtail? (...) You run round with a werewolf once a month-' - 'Keep your voice down,' implored Lupin." While some people read this scene as a friendly banter among good mates, I read it as Remus begging James to not reveal his secret . (Definition of "implore" - "to entreat; to beg; to pray," according to Webster's Dictionary.)
Remus lived in constant fear that his big-mouth friends would disclose his secret, not out of spite or because they wanted to get him in trouble, but because they thought it was funny and it was clever and it was a deliciously thrilling risk. How far can we go this time? How many werewolf jokes can we make? The others are all so stupid, they will never find out. Etc. I had such friends - even though not such a secret - and I know that I would cringe sometimes lest they should say something in public which was supposed to be strictly confidential. At the same time, he had to exercise control over them, while fully aware that it a) was futile and b) would additionally provoke Sirius and James.
So while I think that MWPP functioned well as a group in the eyes of others, they weren't necessarily such an inherently harmonious group as one could wish. Sirius and Remus' reminiscence in OotP when confronted by Harry shows that they have fond memories of that time, but since one of them has just spent 12 years in a soul-killing prison and the other never had friends before school and has been "shunned all [his] adult life, unable to find paid work" (Remus in PoA), I don't think they are entirely objective and the memories of their school years are probably the best ones they've got in any case.
An additional aspect includes the external circumstances: It has been stated several times throughout the series that "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great," (Dumbledore's speech, GoF). It is also stated that during that time, no-one knew friend from foe and that people distrusted each other. Sirius, James, Remus and Peter were at school at precisely that time, and I thinks it's reasonable to assume that, considering everything, they had to face similar trust issues and suspensions of friendship like Harry, Ron and Hermione did in PoA (Crookshanks vs. Scabbers) and GoF (Ron vs. Harry).
I still like them. And I'd shag haughtily-bored-yet-handsome Sirius anytime.
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no subject
Date: 2004-07-12 07:12 am (UTC)With James and Sirius being close friends, either since before Hogwarts, which is well possible if James came from a pure-blood family, or since their early days at school, this leaves Peter and Remus at the fringes of the group.
I really doubt that considering Sirius' background he might have been familiar with the Potters. Everything about James would indicate that he came from a liberal family as far as Muggleborns are concerned. I can buy Sirius changing what he had been taught to believe at home (assuming some of those Blacks who've been burned out of the tapestry hadn't tried to influence him before) but not both of them. Therefore it would be a bit unlikely that the Potters and the Blacks might have been friends. On the other hand, since it's safe to assume both families were rich it is a possibility regardless of political affinities. I just think it's more likely that they met in Hogwarts and James taught Sirius how to be a good Gryffindor.
On to Peter....
"This lead to his being overlooked by teachers, disregarded by James and Sirius (and, possibly, Remus) and, in final consequence, his turning to Voldemort, because he felt he needed the protection of someone much stronger and more capable than himself."
I won't pretend to understand him, what I do know is that I like him a lot more after OotP. I don't think it was merely self preservation even though he has proven that his hide is what he values above all. I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't pent up hatred about the way the others treated him, esp. James. Thin line between love and hate and all. And that idiot James never had a clue until the end...
no subject
Date: 2004-07-12 11:10 am (UTC)I do. I realise that my view is harsh from your perspective, but it's based on my experiences. And I'm so Lupin, like OMG! *g*
I just think it's more likely that they met in Hogwarts and James taught Sirius how to be a good Gryffindor.
I think I read a fic somewhere where they hated each other at the beginning, which is well possible. I'm not sure how much the Blacks who got kicked out of the family could have influenced Sirius, because they were probably not often guests in his mother's house. Anyway, Sirius was probably strongly influenced by James (and vice versa), but he had also to fight against the influence of his family on his life, which has always been present. I know it's not an excuse for anything he did, but it is an attempt at the explanation of his motives.
I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't pent up hatred about the way the others treated him, esp. James.
Yes, this is true, I should have mentioned it. I do believe that Peter truly admired James and that he has been trying to make James like him by making this admiration obvious. I'm sure James' treatment of him lead to pent-up aggressions. But at first, I imagine, Peter began doubting his own abilities. In a way, Peter behaves like a woman married to an abusive husband, thinking that if she's nice he will stop beating her one day. And then, one day it she who snaps.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-12 12:06 pm (UTC)But I will say that I'm sick of the whole Snape/Sirius comparison and who had a crappier life and should get away with more. As kids I could argue that "sucky life at home and merciless bullying at school " rather beats "sucky life at home and wonderful friends at school". Although to be fair we don't know for a fact that Snape had a bad home life, I had a fairly decent home life and can remember plenty of instances of my parents yelling at each other and me crying in a corner.
But as adults we have those 12 years in Azkaban vs. vague DE stuff, vague redemption, a job (even if it was in Hogwarts, Snape's equivalent of Grimmauld place in terms of what it has done to him emotionaly) and dealing with Potter. Sirius is definitely allowed to be more fucked up as an adult.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-12 12:25 pm (UTC)As I don't care much about James either way, I can't be bothered to discuss him at length in any case. And as to Remus...
He is such a dear cutie and I love him to pieces!!!11I don't have anything to add.You know that I like Severus, too, and I am not trying to say who's more justified in being completely messed up. I just think that there are parallels between them, and therefore, for me, they are too similar to hate the one and love the other. But, that's me.
I think the point is that I don't identify myself so strongly with any of those characters as you do, and have therefore a different approach to them. We tend to like/approve of the behaviour we understand. Since my range of experience doesn't cover that of Severus and Sirius, I know them from the outside only, if you know what I mean. In my opinion, this whole character-interpretation business comes down to personal experiences.
I like Remus because he shows behaviour patterns similar to mine. I realise that he lies and that he dodges responsibility, but, sad as it is, this method of dealing with unpleasant things resembles mine more than Severus' method. I don't say it's better, but it's something I understand on a very emotional basis. Whereas I don't understand Sirius and Severus on emotional basis, because I've never been there.
See? I lied right there in the first paragraph of this comment, when I said I didn't have anything to add to the subject of Remus...
no subject
Date: 2004-07-12 12:42 pm (UTC)But then OotP came and I saw his passive aggressive crap and how it had really been with his oh, so great friends and how he did nothing about it... It just disgusted me. Even Peter whom everyone despised did something. Remus just stood there and let it all happen and when all these years later he got a shot at doing something in his life he just did exactly what he'd been doing all along. Nothing! He just stood there while Harry was in danger for all he knew and hoped it would all go away!!! In short, you'll find me in a corner cheering when Peter gets to use that ominous silver hand of his on Remus and JKR cries her eyes out about killing yet another favourite.
As for you, I like you too much to think you really are anything like Remus :-p
no subject
Date: 2004-07-12 12:54 pm (UTC)Heh! Thanks! It would be very sad indeed if you began to hate me.
I was being polemic, of course, as I'm sure you realise.
I fully understand your reaction to Remus, intellectually. But my instinct prompts me to not so much justify, but to understand his actions. OK, I take my responsibilities more seriously than he does, but it is an effort sometimes, and I understand the impulse to simply ignore trouble and walk away from problems. In a way, Remus personifies the mistakes I have. Even though they are more pronounced in him than they are in me.
I am convinced he will die in any case, so you will get the chance to cheer in the corner ;-)
And I shall not hate you for it.no subject
Date: 2004-07-12 01:14 pm (UTC)Even though they are more pronounced in him than they are in me.
Of course they are! He's a fictional character. I identify very strongly with Snape and to a large extent with Sirius but they are way too fucked up and miserable. It hasn't really been that horrible to me. And as much as I enjoy Snape being snapish my snapishness is very rarely allowed to come out. And as much as I love him, I also love Neville who is his victim and Ron who hates him and several other characters all very different with each other.
It would have been much easier if I hated, say, Dumbledore. It would be nothing new, there are strong anti-D feelings throughout fandom. I'd be in good company. But Remus? Everybody's darling? The oh so tragic and sexy wolfie? And the Snupin! Don't get me started on the Snupin! One more fic with Nursemaid!Snape comforting poor Remus about Sirius' death and I just might kill someone.
I'm sorry. I really was joking about the Remus comment, as for cheering when he dies, it will all depend on whether Snape will have survived him. If Snape is (argh, NO!) dead Remus dying will definitely not be enough to cheer me up.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-12 01:37 pm (UTC)Ah, the wonders of online communication! Emoticons alone get you only so far. But thank god we understand each other even though we disagree on certain preferences/aversions.
One more fic with Nursemaid!Snape comforting poor Remus about Sirius' death and I just might kill someone.
I like Snupin as such. But it can go horribly wrong. (Then again, that is true for all pairings.)
Nursemaid!Snape is horrible, but what I really hate is when they're forced into a buddy-movie dynamics, with Snape being the grumpy, morose one and Remus the chattering idiot. Remus as the donkey to Severus' Shrek, the Buzz Lightyear to Severus' Cowboy Woody, the Eddie Murphy to... everyone, really.
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Date: 2004-07-12 01:46 pm (UTC)I don't think I have caught much of buddy cop Snape. I think there's been more of that in Snack. I just don't get that Snack dynamic of having Sirius be dumb. The hell? SIrius is not dumb. Sure, after 12 years in Azkaban some wizarding developments must have passed him by but in general he is very smart, possibly smarter than Snape.
I don't hate all Snupin I must admit. Once in a blue moon there is a fic that's just right Lately I just can't get Bernice's "Wolf in sheep's Clothing" out of my mind. Every time I think of that fic I shiver.
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Date: 2004-07-12 03:57 pm (UTC)Not if I don't kill them first. :p
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Date: 2004-07-12 08:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-07-12 01:56 pm (UTC)I've enjoyed reading the whole discussion here, but this point is particularly wonderful!
I've friended you, hope you don't mind.
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Date: 2004-07-12 02:03 pm (UTC)Thank you! That's good to know. Seeing as you are a dedicated Peter supporter, it is particularly gratifying.
*friends you right back*
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Date: 2004-07-13 08:32 am (UTC)Given James's contempt towards Peter - contempt based on obliviousness rather than deliberate cruelty - I can't imagine James was ever a good friend towards him. James seems as if he has always taken Peter for granted, rather than changed from warm to cool as the "abused wife" metaphor would suggest.
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Date: 2004-07-14 09:28 am (UTC)We don't know how the relationship between James and Peter developed. Peter might have been a stalker, but in case James found him repulsive from the very beginning, he shouldn't have let him in into the group as far as he did. If they didn't want Peter around, why did they help him become an Animagus? The moment they accepted him as part of their group, they took on responsibility.
The Peter we see in OotP is not the sort of friend I would like to have around, so I understand that you consider him a stalker.
A stalker, by contrast, reads far too much into the beloved's tiniest gesture and imagines a strong relationship when in fact little or no mutual affection exists.
As I said, letting him in as part of the group, sharing secrets (to which extent we don't know) with him, were gestures of, if not of affection, so of acceptance.
The abused-wife issue is a difficult one. There are certainly those who, as you say, want that love back again, blinding [themselves] to the present cruelty for the sake of past memories. But some relationships are abusive from the very beginning. An abusive man doesn't beat his wife because he stopped loving her, but because beating is his response to all conflicts. And the reason why the abused woman lets him is not necessarily that he wants his love back, but because she believes he really loves her, deep down, but he can't show it. Or that she deserves being beaten, because she has annoyed him. Or - and this is where I drew the parallel to Peter - that he will stop beating her if only she does her best to please him.