How harmonious a group were MWPP?

[donnaimmaculata]

Man in the Mirror, the fic I wrote for the mwppfqf, is based on an interpretation of MWPP as a group which had to fight more internal difficulties than generally assumed. Regardless whether one likes them and writes fun-oriented MWPP stories or whether one likes Snape and writes stories where MWPP gang rape all that moves, they are most often portrayed as a closed group. I think that from all we know about them, MWPP can be also interpreted in quite a different way.



While I am not as large a fan of MWPP as some people, I do read the occasional MWPP fic, mostly if in need of fun and fluff (the good sort of fluff, not the soppy one) in combination with some hot Sirius/Remus action. Most MWPP authors (at least all of those I read) portray Sirius, Remus, James and Peter as a closely knitted group of friends, who share secrets, beds and chocolate. While not necessarily equals (Sirius and James the trouble-making ring leaders, Remus the voice of reason, Peter the good and, most often, funny friend), they are all valuable and important members of the group. As I prefer Sirius/Remus centred fics, there is always the subtle shift of focus, from the close friendship bond between Sirius and James to the close not-merely-friendship between Sirius and Remus. I'm sure you all know what sort of MWPP stories I mean.

I have, however, begun to entertain the idea that MWPP, as a group, could have been highly dysfunctional, based on the personalities and personal histories of the members. I assume that they all shared the same dormitory at Hogwarts and that there was only the four of them in the dormitory. With James and Sirius being close friends, either since before Hogwarts, which is well possible if James came from a pure-blood family, or since their early days at school, this leaves Peter and Remus at the fringes of the group. Remus, however, is the one who eventually brought them together when his secret was revealed. I imagine James and Sirius being thrilled by the idea of having a werewolf friend. This still leaves Peter out. But it was probably safer to include Peter as part of the group and make him a co-conspirator than try to hide a secret of such proportions for the years to come. These are merely assumptions, of course, but since we don't know anything about how the friendship between the boys developed, these assumptions are as valid as any others.

Regardless on whether or not this scenario is true, the fact remains that James and Sirius were the core of the group, and Remus' being a werewolf was a major foundation of many of the group's activities. Their becoming Animagi made them, quite literarily, partners in crime. The creation of the Marauder's Map was only accomplished because they were Animagi. ("... well, highly exciting possibilities were open to us now that we could all transform. Soon we were leaving the Shrieking Shack and roaming the school grounds and the village by night. (...) And that's how we came to write the Marauder's Map, and sign it with our nicknames." Remus in PoA) Plus - on a side note - Peter would not have been able to fake his own death quite so successfully had it not been for the fact that he could turn into a rat. And Sirius would not have escaped Azkaban. It all comes down to Remus in the end! While I embrace all fics that show how close they were as boys, I also think that the flashback scene in OotP in particular opens the way to an entirely different interpretation. (Even though I am convinced, for reasons stated here, that the Pensieve is not an objective device and that what we saw in that scene is strongly tinted by Severus' personal feelings. But as I am not trying to evaluate MWPP with regard to Severus at this point, the Pensieve scene serves as means to analyse MWPP as a cohesive group.)

We don't know much about James, apart from his being talented, popular and arrogant. I assume that he was just a normal boy who happened to be carried away by his own cleverness and outgrew it when he got older. I know that there are those who think James was a borderline psychopath, and I don't want to question this point of view as it is based on experiences which differ from mine. I knew boys like James, and none of them grew up to be a psychopath or a sociopath. His attitude was, nevertheless, painfully arrogant, not merely towards Severus and other victims whom he used to hex in the corridors, but also towards Peter. "'How thick are you, Wormtail?' said James impatiently. 'You run with a werewolf once a month-'" In spite of (or maybe because of) Peters openly displayed admiration, James did not value Peter as a friend, as an equal. He liked Peter to provide the applause. Not a nice attitude, but not an unusual one. From what I know of him James was the most 'normal' one of the lot.

Sirius is a different matter. A concept which is also strongly supported by everything that we learn about him as an adult. Sirius was talented, probably popular (I'm not sure whether we ever hear anyone say that he was) and arrogant, but he had also a highly violent streak which James, apparently, lacked: He sent Snape after Remus, for reasons unknown, apart from what he said himself: "Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to ... hoping to get us expelled ..." (PoA). We might find out more about his motives, but so far they're not very satisfying. Sirius wanted to protect his friends from external danger and he didn't care much about the method. I want by no means justify what he did, but I want to point out that Sirius' behaviour indicates that he suffered from depressions already as teenager. From all that I know, adolescents suffering from depressions show any of the following symptoms: apathy, timidity and overly aggressive behaviour. While the first two don't apply (apathy might, to a certain degree), Sirius' willingness to hurt Severus - an act which Severus' 'main' adversary, James, didn't sanction - showed a capacity for violence which lies over the average. It also goes well with all that we know about Sirius as an adult (slashing the Fat Lady's portrait, his deranged behaviour in the Shrieking Shack...) as well as with all that we know about his upbringing. (On another side note: I feel that if I forgive Severus much of his behaviour towards his students (Harry, Neville, Hermione...) (not to mention his joining the Death Eaters) on account of his having been the victim of violence at school, I think it's only fair to forgive Sirius much of his behaviour towards fellow students on account of his growing up in a family who hated him.) In the flashback scene in OotP, we see Sirius being overly boisterous, bored and aggressive within a short space of time, which also supports the depressions theory.

I don't think that anyone really doubts that Sirius was not the easiest person to have around. While he was keen on protecting his friends from external influences, he wasn't really aware of what they wanted, and, first and foremost, he didn't care much about hurting them himself. "Put that away, will you, (...) before Wormtail here wets himself." Had Snape, or any other outsider said this, Sirius would have been after his blood. Not necessarily because he cared much about Peter's feelings, but because Peter was part of his group and as such taboo for external aggressors. I am tempted to say that he also disregarded Remus' feelings when saying, "I'm bored. (...) Wish it was full moon," because while full moon for him meant fun and adventure, for Remus it has never been an entirely pleasant experience. But seeing as Remus himself says in PoA that the company of the other three made his transformations "not only bearable but the best times of [his] life," I will let it pass.

In conclusion: Sirius was loyal to and protective of his friends when it came to external influences, but he was not necessarily very loyal and very protective within the group. (Or rather, he was loyal to James, but not to the others.) In a way, his behaviour very much equals Severus'-as-an-adult, who saves Harry's life time and again from external danger, but who is a nasty bastard in personal interactions.

Peter is a difficult character. Much has been said on Peter's not being a pathetic loser at all, and I wholeheartedly agree. Peter was cleverer and more capable than his friends, his teachers, and most readers give his credit for. (As recently discussed on a thread in pauraque's LJ here.) But the fact remains that his friends didn't value him particularly highly. Peter's problem was, basically, his lack of self-confidence, especially when contrasted against his more dashing, cleverer friends. This lead to his being overlooked by teachers, disregarded by James and Sirius (and, possibly, Remus) and, in final consequence, his turning to Voldemort, because he felt he needed the protection of someone much stronger and more capable than himself. Had he experienced more support on his friends/teachers part, he might have realised that he was fully capable of taking care of himself. As it was, his abilities have always been underestimated and undervalued, by others and by himself. From Peter's point of view, his friendship with Sirius and James in particular was not beneficial at all. I don't know to which extent he really admired James, but it is well possible that he exaggerated the degree of admiration in the hope that James (and Sirius) would like him better and take him more seriously as a friend.

Now to Remus. Remus is the character I identify myself most strongly with, because I show similar behaviour patterns and am generally put into the same category (i.e. the calm, quiet, reasonable one who is trusted to exercise control over the peer group). I thus imagine that I understand how this character works. For the sake of this theory, I assume that Remus was sort of dragged into the friendship by Sirius and James, and that he followed most willingly, because he has never had friends before and the feeling was exhilarating. Over the years, they found out about his secret and, by keeping silent on the matter, gave him freedom on the one hand, but imprisoned him on the other hand. Freedom is obvious: Remus didn't have to hide and sneak around and tell lies about sick relatives. Within his dormitory, in the Shrieking Shack and on their various adventures, he was free. But he was free only as long as it was only the four of them together. With possible witnesses around, there was always a considerable risk of disclosure. "'How thick are you, Wormtail? (...) You run round with a werewolf once a month-' - 'Keep your voice down,' implored Lupin." While some people read this scene as a friendly banter among good mates, I read it as Remus begging James to not reveal his secret . (Definition of "implore" - "to entreat; to beg; to pray," according to Webster's Dictionary.)

Remus lived in constant fear that his big-mouth friends would disclose his secret, not out of spite or because they wanted to get him in trouble, but because they thought it was funny and it was clever and it was a deliciously thrilling risk. How far can we go this time? How many werewolf jokes can we make? The others are all so stupid, they will never find out. Etc. I had such friends - even though not such a secret - and I know that I would cringe sometimes lest they should say something in public which was supposed to be strictly confidential. At the same time, he had to exercise control over them, while fully aware that it a) was futile and b) would additionally provoke Sirius and James.

So while I think that MWPP functioned well as a group in the eyes of others, they weren't necessarily such an inherently harmonious group as one could wish. Sirius and Remus' reminiscence in OotP when confronted by Harry shows that they have fond memories of that time, but since one of them has just spent 12 years in a soul-killing prison and the other never had friends before school and has been "shunned all [his] adult life, unable to find paid work" (Remus in PoA), I don't think they are entirely objective and the memories of their school years are probably the best ones they've got in any case.

An additional aspect includes the external circumstances: It has been stated several times throughout the series that "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great," (Dumbledore's speech, GoF). It is also stated that during that time, no-one knew friend from foe and that people distrusted each other. Sirius, James, Remus and Peter were at school at precisely that time, and I thinks it's reasonable to assume that, considering everything, they had to face similar trust issues and suspensions of friendship like Harry, Ron and Hermione did in PoA (Crookshanks vs. Scabbers) and GoF (Ron vs. Harry).

I still like them. And I'd shag haughtily-bored-yet-handsome Sirius anytime.

Comments

[tammaiya.livejournal.com]

... *applause*
I always find it really interesting when people analyse canon for their fandom. *is such an english-student nerd* I find everything you've said there really interesting, and I agree with a lot of it too. One thing I've found in particular, from my own experience at least, is that small friendship groups that are very close and have known each other for years are more likely to get over their problems but their problems are probably worse anyway. I've been friends with the same people for about 10 years now, so... yes. On a side note I've always thought that Harry should have more psychological problems with what he's gone through, actually. They never seem to have those deep and meaningful talks that close friends generally do. ^^;

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Thank you *bows*

I love reading other people's analyses and views on fandom-related issues in general and characters in particular. In a way, it's a form of dealing with my own school trauma: I had several teachers who wouldn't accept any interpretation of literature that disagreed with their own. The fandom shows that there are as many different opinions as there are readers, and that you can read one and the same character in countless different ways, and I love it. So, literature-student nerd, I suppose *g*

The problem of close groups of friends, or cliques, is that outsiders tend to regard them as inherently harmonious, even though they often aren't. I do think that MWPP were good enough friends, but there was a huge potential for dysfunctionality within their relationship. And this is what makes it interesting.

I've always thought that Harry should have more psychological problems with what he's gone through

This is true. He is right messed up. But with his upbringing, he has never learned to communicate his feelings to others, and none of the adults seems to care. Ron and Hermione have never really been in the position to understand his problems. Well, Hermione is certainly getting there now. But I fear that it's too late for Harry to learn how to confide in others. Poor dear.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

In a way, it's a form of dealing with my own school trauma: I had several teachers who wouldn't accept any interpretation of literature that disagreed with their own.

Oh, I feel your pain!Thankfully, I've also been able to communicate with some of the most open-minded teachers I've ever met, and that sort of cancels out the negetive experience.

Swatkat

[mimine.livejournal.com]

Very interesting analysis. You do know in which parts I disagree of course but it doesn't matter. :-D

With James and Sirius being close friends, either since before Hogwarts, which is well possible if James came from a pure-blood family, or since their early days at school, this leaves Peter and Remus at the fringes of the group.

I really doubt that considering Sirius' background he might have been familiar with the Potters. Everything about James would indicate that he came from a liberal family as far as Muggleborns are concerned. I can buy Sirius changing what he had been taught to believe at home (assuming some of those Blacks who've been burned out of the tapestry hadn't tried to influence him before) but not both of them. Therefore it would be a bit unlikely that the Potters and the Blacks might have been friends. On the other hand, since it's safe to assume both families were rich it is a possibility regardless of political affinities. I just think it's more likely that they met in Hogwarts and James taught Sirius how to be a good Gryffindor.

On to Peter....

"This lead to his being overlooked by teachers, disregarded by James and Sirius (and, possibly, Remus) and, in final consequence, his turning to Voldemort, because he felt he needed the protection of someone much stronger and more capable than himself."

I won't pretend to understand him, what I do know is that I like him a lot more after OotP. I don't think it was merely self preservation even though he has proven that his hide is what he values above all. I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't pent up hatred about the way the others treated him, esp. James. Thin line between love and hate and all. And that idiot James never had a clue until the end...

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

You do know in which parts I disagree of course but it doesn't matter. :-D

I do. I realise that my view is harsh from your perspective, but it's based on my experiences. And I'm so Lupin, like OMG! *g*

I just think it's more likely that they met in Hogwarts and James taught Sirius how to be a good Gryffindor.

I think I read a fic somewhere where they hated each other at the beginning, which is well possible. I'm not sure how much the Blacks who got kicked out of the family could have influenced Sirius, because they were probably not often guests in his mother's house. Anyway, Sirius was probably strongly influenced by James (and vice versa), but he had also to fight against the influence of his family on his life, which has always been present. I know it's not an excuse for anything he did, but it is an attempt at the explanation of his motives.

I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't pent up hatred about the way the others treated him, esp. James.

Yes, this is true, I should have mentioned it. I do believe that Peter truly admired James and that he has been trying to make James like him by making this admiration obvious. I'm sure James' treatment of him lead to pent-up aggressions. But at first, I imagine, Peter began doubting his own abilities. In a way, Peter behaves like a woman married to an abusive husband, thinking that if she's nice he will stop beating her one day. And then, one day it she who snaps.

[mimine.livejournal.com]

Nah. Not harsh. In fact I agree with everything you say about Sirius and most about Peter. I won't get into the other two at all, I can already feel my blood pressure rising. Though can't help noticing that James had a decent loving family as far as we can tell and still was a repulsive bully

But I will say that I'm sick of the whole Snape/Sirius comparison and who had a crappier life and should get away with more. As kids I could argue that "sucky life at home and merciless bullying at school " rather beats "sucky life at home and wonderful friends at school". Although to be fair we don't know for a fact that Snape had a bad home life, I had a fairly decent home life and can remember plenty of instances of my parents yelling at each other and me crying in a corner.

But as adults we have those 12 years in Azkaban vs. vague DE stuff, vague redemption, a job (even if it was in Hogwarts, Snape's equivalent of Grimmauld place in terms of what it has done to him emotionaly) and dealing with Potter. Sirius is definitely allowed to be more fucked up as an adult.

[pauraque]

In a way, Peter behaves like a woman married to an abusive husband, thinking that if she's nice he will stop beating her one day.

I've enjoyed reading the whole discussion here, but this point is particularly wonderful!

I've friended you, hope you don't mind.

[mincot.livejournal.com]

Very interesting analysis! Would you be interested in reposting At Godric's HAt? We're just getting started, and are interested in genfic, but also in discussing building up a library of good character analyses. http://p070.ezboard.com/bgodricshat

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Thank you! Would you be interested in reposting At Godric's Hat? Sure, will do. *is very flattered* I will edit out my personal side notes, though, before I do.

[ceilidh]

(On another side note: I feel that if I forgive Severus much of his behaviour towards his students (Harry, Neville, Hermione...) (not to mention his joining the Death Eaters) on account of his having been the victim of violence at school, I think it's only fair to forgive Sirius much of his behaviour towards fellow students on account of his growing up in a family who hated him.)

Amen.

I'm such a Sirius fangirl, I can't help it, and I felt horribly for him when I learned about his awful homelife. I mean, even Harry's parents loved him. He can't remember it, but they did, even though his aunt and uncle hate him. The people that gave BIRTH to Sirius hated him. *wibble*

When children are young, that is when they learn their basic social skills (preschool, elementary age), so by the time Sirius got to Hogwarts he had no real social skills and no real concept of how to relate to people at all in a normal way. It doesn't excuse his behavior at ALL, but it does explain it. And he never got better after that, because not long after school was Azkaban, and... yeah. He never really had a chance.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

I like Sirius, too, and I think that he is quite undervalued by many readers (and I don't mean those who just plain hate him). From all that we know from his behaviour in GoF in the first place, but also from the background information we got in PoA, Sirius could have been quite a huge asset for the Order if only they had let him and hadn't locked him up in that horrible house to deal with his horrible memories all by himself. He never really had a chance, the poor man, and still, he was trying so hard. I greatly appreciate the fact that Sirius was the only adult in OotP who took Harry's issues seriously and genuinely tried to help. He was the only one who wanted Harry to have information on Voldemort and supported his idea to practise Defense against the Dark Arts. Whether or not encouraging Harry to form DA was a sign of recklessness is immaterial - Sirius, in spite of not really knowing Harry, realised that Harry would try to get information and carry out his plans in any case. Something that Dumbledore conveniently overlooked.

But, I'm sure you know that all yourself *g*

[agatha-s.livejournal.com]

I followed the link here from Daily Snitch.
I agree with your analysis - I see the Marauders' friendship as troubled and dysfunctional. In addition to everything you mentioned, there's the fact that James chose Sirius to be both the best man at his wedding and Harry's godfather. If it was an equal friendship of four people he would have chosen Remus or Peter for one of these roles. And then he again chose Sirius to be his Secret Keeper, and if I remember it correctly, they only switched to Peter because nobody would expect that he was the person trusted with the secret. I can understand if Peter was hurt and insulted by that and if that feeling led to his betrayal.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

there's the fact that James chose Sirius to be both the best man at his wedding and Harry's godfather

That's true. This certainly supports the canon evidence that they were the ones who were really close.

I think the story about how they switched from Sirius to Peter as Secret Keeper it told only once in canon, in the Shrieking Shack scene. Sirius says that he "thought it was the perfect plan... a bluff... Voldemort (...) would never dream they'd use a weak, talentless thing like [Peter]." Of course, in that scene, Sirius is driven by his hatred for Peter, but he voices what everybody's been taught to think: that Peter is weak and pathetic. As this seems to be his (and James') general opinion, it really is no great surprise that Peter was indeed hurt and began to harbour hateful thoughts against James and Sirius.

[fernwithy.livejournal.com]

An excellent essay!

I particularly appreciated your comments on Sirius's behavior--I agree that he is always portrayed as not quite right emotionally, and your analysis of his behavior in the Pensieve is dead on. I'm not sure I'd be so quick to forgive his "I wish it were the full moon," as it's obvious by Remus's behavior that his fond memories of it years later may be a bit exaggerated. Let's remember, what he's essentially said is, "Gee, I wish your chronic illness were in an acute phase right now."

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

I think that from all we know about Sirius, it is safe to assume that he was not merely difficult but was suffering from a psychological condition.

Let's remember, what he's essentially said is, "Gee, I wish your chronic illness were in an acute phase right now."he who makes the depreciating remarks first, others will assume that it is no big deal for him and won't try to hurt him by throwing werewolf insults into his face. That's at least how I see Remus.

[schnitzel1377.livejournal.com]

Got here through daily_snitch, and you don't know me, but *word* on Sirius being depressed. I've often thought the same thing, especially with his agressive behaviour, which tends to manifest in boys suffering from depression. Wonderful essay.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I'm glad you found your way here and that you liked the essay.

especially with his agressive behaviour, which tends to manifest in boys suffering from depression

Yes, exactly. Sirius never really had a chance,being quite messed up right from the start.

Bumbling in

[dphearson.livejournal.com]

Working weirdly:

I really liked what you said in a comment above about Peter's emotional state being similiar to that of an abused spouse, who then pops. Ouch. And ouch. And yes, it must have hurt deeply, the small everyday cruelties that James and Sirius may have unwittingly visited. But to sacrifice a young family like that (shudders)
Sirius I have sympathy for, believe or not. He is the type of guy that would have died before 30- if not in the first conflict with Voldie, then doing something harebrained. I agree with your depressions analysis, and furthermore, I think he clung to James and Lily like a lifeline, knowing that without that connection, he would have been lost.
James, I think, was the knit that kept the group together. HE had varying degrees of affection for them all, and to judge from the way Remus and Sirius was ready to kill Peter in PoA, gave the emotional resonance to the group. Without James, they are utterly adrift.
Remus is a cretin(I do like him, believe or not). Yes, I know you synpathise with Remus because of your personality ( which I will be presumptive and say I think you are more lovesome and responsible than Remus. Ha!) Shunned and unable to find work his entire adult life? And why is that, precisely, Remus? For as competitive and cruel as the WW can be, you cannot tell me that people did not try to help him before arriving to Hogwarts. A person described as being well mannered, friendly and warm seriously could not find a job, or way to make another social network? My theory is that Remus' faults- his lying and dodging responsibility- is more at work here than his condition. As I put in a earlier post in my LJ, people are funny about others who work for them. Fits, bad attitude, greasy hair (sound familiar) and other traits can be tolerated, but lying and irresponsibilty are the two that can guarantee shabby robes and spotty employment for a male Briton wizard with a privileged education.

Re: Bumbling in

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

But to sacrifice a young family like that (shudders)

I don't think that he was justified in what he did, but I can still try to fathom his motives.

That's basically the whole point, I think. All these characters, MWPP as well as Snape (who are really my main characters of interest) are messed up in one way or other and all of them have made some utterly stupid choice at some point of their lives. Many of their actions are unjustifiable, and I can't say that what James and Sirius did to Severus (and Peter) at school can be excused, or what Remus did by keeping out of conflicts, and what Snape still does by bullying entirely innocent victims like Neville. What I can do, is discuss their motives, analyse them and try to understand why they acted like they did.

I do sympathise with Remus indeed (and I thank you for considering me a better person *g*), because his motives and his reactions are those most understandable to me. I am not like Remus, but I assume similar self-preservation techniques. I do like Severus, flaws and all, but his experiences and his way of dealing with things are so different from mine that I can't identify myself with him as much as I can with Remus.

I fully agree with you that James was the knit that kept the group together. After all, I consider him the most 'normal' from the group.

As to Remus, our knowledge of his employment background is very shaky. I think Rowling put him in patched clothes in order to make him look pathetic and miserable before he turned out to be a kick-ass teacher. He was still patchy and shabby after one year's employment at Hogwarts, even though the teachers' salaries don't seem to be low in general. (Lockhart could certainly afford an impressive wardrobe *g*) We don't know, either, in how far the anti-werewolf regulations restrict him, because we don't know whether and how people could know that he was a werewolf before PoA. I don't think that Rowling wanted to imply that Remus can't find a job because he is a big lying liar, but it is of course a valid interpretation of the facts as they are presented to us.

[dementedsiren.livejournal.com]

I really enjoyed this discussion, and agree with most of what you said. Unfortunately, I don't have time right now to pick at the points I didn't (silly work schedule). However, I did want to drop you a line and let you know I've friended you - after reading this and your take on the pensieve scene, etc... well, they make me think, and I'm a sucker for things that really make me reconsider how I personify characters.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Ah, just as well you don't have the time now, because I would have felt compelled to answer and I really should be getting on with my work already. Feel free to come back to them, if you like. I love discussing different interpretations and views on the characters.

I'm a sucker for things that really make me reconsider how I personify characters.

Ditto.

[mudcoffeed.livejournal.com]

I know that there are those who think James was a borderline psychopath

That's interesting, because I always thought people would say that about Sirius. James seems too boyish (more of looking cool than anything else), I guess, for die!die!die! and things like that. Sirius, on the other hand, likes to feed werewolves in his spare time.

I liked your essay. MWPP was, to me, more of a Padfoot and Prongs duo with Moony, their personal pet, and Wormtail, their personal one-man claque, coming along for the ride. Mostly because Sirius thought Moony was the traitor, which caused me to think that Sirius never really got over his prejudice against werewolves until much later (haha), and the trust between them was rather a high-school and having fun with a big wall protecting us type of trust than brothers4life.

So, do you think Sirius was telling the truth when he explained to Harry why he didn't want to be the Potter's secret keeper?

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Yes, there are more who think so about Sirius, but I've come across dicussions which contribute sociopathic tendencies to James, too, and James always struck me as rather normal. Unpleasant, at times, but normal.

Moony, their personal pet, and Wormtail, their personal one-man claque, coming along for the ride

I particularly like the pet connotation. Not merely a pet, but a really dangerous one. Which is, like, so kewl.

and the trust between them was rather a high-school and having fun with a big wall protecting us type of trust than brothers4life

I think outsiders always perceive a group of friends as close, because they have no idea about how the internal structures work. Harry does so regarding the Slytherins - "Pansy Parkinson and her gang of Slythering girls," etc. I don't think that they're friendship was all fake, but as we only hear the very biased comments of Sirius and Remus reminiscing about the past, it is safe to assume that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I like MWPP, and I've always been very outspoken for including Peter as part of the group, but OotP showed us that he wasn't an equal part of the group.

So, do you think Sirius was telling the truth when he explained to Harry why he didn't want to be the Potter's secret keeper?

That's a good question. I don't think I've ever given it a thought. *analyses her thoughts* From all that we know Sirius didn't care much for Peter as a real friend, didn't take him entirely seriously and couldn't imagine that Peter would have the guts and the brains to betray them all. (Which, on a side note, is Sirius' main flaw: his willingness to underestimate people. It was his downfall with regard to Peter as well as to Kreacher.) I am sure that he really, really wanted to protect James & family. And between Remus and Peter, Remus was the more likely choice as traitor. Whether or not Sirius distrusted him because Remus is a werewolf -I don't think I've got an opinion on that. Either way is possible.

From what I recall, and having just skimmed through the chapter, Sirius said that he persuaded the Potters to use Peter because no-one would expect him to be a Secret Keeper, what with being a weak and talentless thing. And he didn't tell Remus because he thought Remus was the traitor. Both these aspects are certainly true, but they might not be the whole truth. However, I can't think of what else could have played a role from the top of my head.

Sorry about the irrelevant ramblings. I shouldn't be trying to discuss literature after a sleepless night.

Have you got any other ideas about why they switched?

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Found you through daily_snitch. Oh, I really, really enjoyed this essay, and I'm afraid I'm going to ramble a bit now. Ignore me if I get too wordy. *g*

The points that interested me most are, of course, the points that you made about my boy Remus. I identify with him in many ways – the quiet, rational one in the group; the protective mask of politeness and reserve; the not-so-admirable practice of dodging responsibility or remaining passive to avoid trouble – that's me. Possibly it's one of the reasons why I am always the first to jump to his defence – some of his practises may not be excusable, but I can certainly understand why he does what he does.

As I prefer Sirius/Remus centred fics, there is always the subtle shift of focus, from the close friendship bond between Sirius and James to the close not-merely-friendship between Sirius and Remus. I'm sure you all know what sort of MWPP stories I mean.

Speaking of fics, I prefer my Sirius/Remus fics to show the close friendship between Sirius and James instead of conveniently discarding it. The Sirius-James relationship, in my mind, is something akin to the Fred-George Weasley relationship – closest friend, confidante, partner in crime and laughter, whereas Remus is something of the outsider. Sirius may love Remus, but he does not understand a lot about him (Sirius is not the best studier of characters; he's impatient; Remus is reserved and doesn't reveal his innermost feelings to anyone) – at least, not in school – whereas with James he shares a perfect understanding.

Remus, however, is the one who eventually brought them together when his secret was revealed. I imagine James and Sirius being thrilled by the idea of having a werewolf friend.

I can *so* picture James and Sirius freaking out at the thought of having a werewolf friend. *g*

James, Sirius, and Remus had probably developed a certain bond with Peter by the time Remus' secret was revealed. They may not respect him or treat him like an equal – I'd imagine Sirius and James having plenty of "that Wormtail is such an idiot" discussions to themselves, and Remus cringing inwardly at some of the things that Peter did – but they did feel a certain friendship towards him that comes out of living together in the same dorm. James was probably the one closest to Peter, because from what we see in the scene in OotP, Peter admired (or at least pretended to) James the most. James' assurance for his admiration and devotion could also have been a factor behind his choice of Peter as the secret-keeper.

I feel that if I forgive Severus much of his behaviour towards his students (Harry, Neville, Hermione...) (not to mention his joining the Death Eaters) on account of his having been the victim of violence at school, I think it's only fair to forgive Sirius much of his behaviour towards fellow students on account of his growing up in a family who hated him.)

Actually, I believe Snape gave back as much as he got – he certainly does not seem the harmless sheep type to me, and that he wouldn't hesitate to resort to violence is displayed when he hexes one of them in the same scene. His treatment of the children is not merely a result of being a victim of violence in school; in fact, if he were truly the underdog, then wouldn't he be the first to understand Neville's plight? I view his attitude towards his students as a compound of his confused youth, and his personal flaws – inability to let go of a grudge, confusion between personal and professional. (I still love him)

This lead to his being overlooked by teachers, disregarded by James and Sirius (and, possibly, Remus) and, in final consequence, his turning to Voldemort, because he felt he needed the protection of someone much stronger and more capable than himself.

The fact that he turned against his friends could also be partly due to a sense of hurt and payback working within him. The man we see in PoA is a fallen man – he may not have been that man 12 years ago.

Remus lived in constant fear that his big-mouth friends would disclose his secret

Oh, that's simply fabulous, and ITA.

Er, I apologise for the rambling. I can't help it at times.

Swatkat

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Oh, you're more than welcome to ramble. I tend to get very wordy when replying to other people's posts, too, so it's only fair *g*

Possibly it's one of the reasons why I am always the first to jump to his defence – some of his practises may not be excusable, but I can certainly understand why he does what he does.

Ah yes, Remus! I feel the same with regard to him. I understand why he acts the way he does, because it parallels my behaviour. We're, like, teh soulmates, dude!!11

Sirius may love Remus, but he does not understand a lot about him (Sirius is not the best studier of characters; he's impatient; Remus is reserved and doesn't reveal his innermost feelings to anyone)

I haven't really got anything to add here. I fully agree. I am not a really a Sirius/Remus shipper, but I always picture Sirius being fascinated by Remus, considering him a bit of a mystery, but not understanding what makes him tick.

Actually, I believe Snape gave back as much as he got

I always used to think so, too. The scene in OotP showed us a slightly different view, because Snape was presented as the innocent victim of two aggressors. He fought back with nasty curses, if he had the chance to fight, but we don't know whether he usually got the chance.

As to his attitude towards his student: From all I know, children who were victims of violence often grow up to be violent themselves. But cruelty and aggression are certainly traits ingrained in Snape's character. Well, as you say, a compound of his confused youth, and his personal flaws. The point I was making was that I don't think Snape is a better person than Sirius.

be partly due to a sense of hurt and payback working within him

Yes, that is true. But I don't think that Peter thought, actively, 'Gosh, this Potter fellow's such an arse. I better join Voldemort and help him destroy Potter.' I think it was more a gradual progress, which culminated in an act of despair, fuelled by his fear of Voldemort and - possibly - his growing insecurities and the assumption that if his friends are not really helping, Voldemort is the only alternative.