Draco and the Tonkses

[donnaimmaculata]

Not being much into Draco Malfoy, I've never given it a thought, but maybe someone else (... slippyslope?....) has: How did Draco really feel about Umbridge's crusade of denial? I mean, it is pretty obvious that he quite liked the idea of Dark magic (Borgin & Burkes, CoS), that, in his opinion, there was something thrilling about the whole Heir's of Slytherin affair? I by no means assume that Draco is evil, but he grew up within an environment which idolised Voldemort. So how would the stupid, deluded kid react to Umbridge and the Ministry's propaganda? One should think he wasn't too happy about it. I honestly don't give him enough credit to think that he can mask his feelings well enough to support Umbridge even though he disagrees with her policy, because Draco tends to display his likes and dislikes very openly, without considering possible consequences. Is he on her side because it's not Dumbledore's? Or is it merely because Rowling makes Draco take the wrong side, regardless of the the quality of the individual 'wrong'?

And where are Ted and Andromeda Tonks? They are not dead - Tonks uses the present tense when talking about them ("My dad's Muggle-born and he's a right old slob." "My mum's got this knack of getting stuff to fit itself in neatly - she even gets the socks to fold themselves ..." The Advance Guard, OotP) - but they never get mentioned as Order members/supporters. Are they relevant at all? They should be. Andromeda is Bellatrix and Narcissa's sister, after all.

Hm, yes. That is what I think about when I should be working instead.

Comments

[fluffyllama.livejournal.com]

I don't know, bringing in much of the other Tonks might have been cut/left out because OotP was long enough, I suppose. I'd expect to see more of the Order members as things heat up, which they must do in HBP.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know. But she could have bring in Andromeda and Ted instead of, say, Hestia and [insert random Order member here]. It makes more sense to use characters which are connected to established characters instead of introducing completely new ones, you know? Or maybe I just hope to know what Andromeda looks like. Would be a shame to leave her out...

[fluffyllama.livejournal.com]

Yes, I suspect any of the non-linked members to be there mainly so we recognise the names of future casualties, though, so maybe in the background is the safest place ;-)

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Yeah, as soon as you've got a speaking part, you know you're gonna bite it ;-)

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Andromeda should be there, dammit! *is slightly obsessed with the Black sisters*

As for Draco, well, I don't think nearly enough about him to know what exactly his thoughts were, but I do think he supported Umbridge because it gave him an opportunity to antagonise Harry (he's petty), and lord over everyone else in the school. He wants attention, and this gave him a lot of it.

Swatkat

[hermione-like.livejournal.com]

I agree with you about Draco. It was attention and a way to bother Harry.

I by no means assume that Draco is evil, but he grew up within an environment which idolised Voldemort. So how would the stupid, deluded kid react to Umbridge and the Ministry's propaganda?

I've actually been wondering recently about how much Draco knows about Lucius' support for Voldemort. Lucius may be blatantly against all non-Purebloods, but I'm not too sure that he's actually told Draco he supports Voldemort. At the end of OotP, when Draco confronts Harry about Lucius being in Azkaban, Harry says Voldemort's name and Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle all flinch as if it's something they're not used to hearing. As the comments below mention, I also think it might be because Draco doesn't quite get that Voldemort is real, you know? Maybe he's stuck in his own world where he gets everything his own way because his father is rich and powerful but at the same time not considering the consequences (people dying, etc).

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Apparently, Death Eaters don't use the name 'Voldemort' just as ordinary wizards don't. In OotP, Snape refers to Voldemort as "Dark Lord" and Harry says that only Dark wizards call him that. Bellatrix, likewise, is enraged that Harry uses 'Voldemort' during the final battle. ("You dare speak his name?" Her and the other Death Eaters' reaction speaks of surprised awe.) While ordinary wizards don't use the name out of fear - just like Muggles used to not pronounce the word "devil" out of fear - Death Eaters don't use it out of respect - just like one doesn't address a king by his name.

Anyway, I think that Draco has no idea who or what Voldemort is. But he realises that there is some greater force which his father dotes on (and Lucius does, whether from personal greed for profit or power or true belief) and he is likely to know that this power is some mysterious "Dark Lord". It's a bit like a child's belief in its parents' god, even without understanding the finer details of the religion. Draco certainly is quite comfortable with so-called Dark artefacts (Borgin & Burkes again; plus, Lucius was in possession of other Voldemort memorabilia which he tried to get rid of in CoS). But I don't think Draco realises the consequences, either. He probably only thinks it's fun to bully Muggles and Muggle-borns.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Andromeda should be there, dammit! *is slightly obsessed with the Black sisters*

As for Draco, well, I don't think nearly enough about him to know what exactly his thoughts were, but I do think he supported Umbridge because it gave him an opportunity to antagonise Harry (he's petty), and lord over everyone else in the school. He wants attention, and this gave him a lot of it.

Swatkat

[anjenue.livejournal.com]

See, I always thought that it wasn't so much that he *supported* Umbridge as that he liked the fact that she wasn't letting the little Gryffindor golden trio get away with shit. He liked the power, he liked the prestige, he liked that she was tough, and he managed to get on her good side so he ended up in a position where he could gloat and exude power and still not be doing anything wrong. She gave him a chance to be the bully without making him the bad guy, at least as far as rules were concerned.

That's sort of how I've seen the Malfoys...they do what they do as a political advantage. I mean, the only reason I can see proud, haughty Lucius Malfoy bowing to ANYONE is because he thought it would be worth it in the long run. This is where you see that Draco really is his father's son: suck up to the authority so you can do exactly what you want to do, but if someone should come and try to pin your mistakes or your bad behaviour on you, you have the advantage of being able to blame it on someone else.

I apologise if this doesn't make sense -- I know what I'm trying to say, but the brain-to-finger conduit is somewhat broken at the moment. *g* Hope it helps.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Yes, I am inclined to think so, too. However, I always vaguely felt that Draco is not very prudent and that his actions are often very impolitic. He is an opportunist, on the one hand, but on the other, he doesn't try to conceal his disgust for Harry even at times when it might be more clever to pretend to like (or at least to not hate) the boy. You know? That's exactly what Lucius Malfoy tells him at Borgin & Burkes in CoS. I don't see Draco as able to conceal his true feelings, even if there is a distinct advantage to do so.

suck up to the authority so you can do exactly what you want to do, but if someone should come and try to pin your mistakes or your bad behaviour on you, you have the advantage of being able to blame it on someone else.

Yes, I agree with this view completely. I see both Lucius and Draco as very pragmatic, but I think Draco is not (yet) able to conceal his feelings as well as his father can. I bet Lucius thinks Fudge is a pompous idiot, but he doesn't let it show.

Hah, I just realised something. I was about to say that Draco likes to show it when he thinks people are idiots, but he is friends with Crabbe and Goyle. Which indicates that either his judgement is much poorer than one should wish for or that he, indeed, is able to ignore his feelings if he thinks there's benefit to be gained from it.

Your thoughts make perfect sense :-) And they made me rethink my concept, which is always a Very Good Thing.

[megstuff.livejournal.com]

An invitation to babble about Draco? I think I love you, donnaimmaculata.

I sort of agree with rosesanguina, but I think there's a big difference between the way Lucius thinks about Umbridge and the way Draco does.

For Lucius, it's certainly a matter of political advantage. And I think that the more Fudge and Umbridge deny or downplay Voldemort, the happier Lucius is. Not only does he have these powerful people in his pocket, but they are doing everything they can to give Voldermort time to build up his support.

I'm sure Lucius wishes Draco thought the same way, but I can't give the kid credit for that much sophistication. For him, really what's not to like about Umbridge? She opposes Dumbledore, makes trouble for Potter, gives him a chance to lord it over the other kids, and is under his daddy's thumb. I'm thinking that up until the Ministry raid, 5th year was Draco's happiest year at Hogwarts.

I think he wouldn't give a second's thought to her views on Voldemort; more importantly, I doubt he has given much real thought to Voldemort. I think that Voldemort is not real to him -- he's just sort of a bogeyman that happens to be on his father's side. This, to me, is what could potentially turn his story interesting...as the war heats up I don't think he's going to be able to hold on to his naive ideas of what it's all about.

And that's undoubtedly more than enough from me. ;)

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Your concepts, alongside with adamasoda's art, are about to turn me into a Draco-lover ;-) ... Well, not 'lover', not as such. But I started paying him more attention, which is always good. (One cannot live from Remus alone, alas!)

I absolutely agree with your view on Lucius' view on Umbridge/Fudge's (in non-shippy terms *g*) anti-Voldemort propaganda. Lucius would know about Voldemort's plans.

I am likewise convinced that Draco considers Voldemort a sort of a bogeyman that happens to be on his father's side (and what a nice way to put it!). This is why I thought that he might dislike Umbridge's denial of Voldemort's return. Because he has no idea about how Voldemort's rise to power works behind the scenes. For him, Voldemort is the powerful force that will make things right. And I could imagine that he wishes for Voldemort to rise and do away with the scum, and therefore, is miffed by the Ministry's denial of Voldemort's existance. Know what I mean?

This, to me, is what could potentially turn his story interesting

Yes, I can absolutely see that. Alas, Rowling doesn't seem to want to explore that conflict. I'd wish for Draco to grow up already and stop being such a nuisance, and a healthy shock about what Voldemort really is all about would be a good catalyst.

And that's undoubtedly more than enough from me. ;)

Feel free to be as wordy as you like ;-)

[megstuff.livejournal.com]

If you're ready to be fully converted to the Draco side of the Force, try sistermagpie; she made an excellent post recently on trip_jinx. I confess my first love was for Fanon Draco but she definitely made me see Canon Draco as more interesting.

Voldemort is the powerful force that will make things right.

I don't really think so. I think for Draco, Lucius is the powerful force that will make things right. I don't know that I could make a strong case for this from canon, but my view is very much that Draco does not really get that Voldemort is real. I'm trying to think of a good muggle analogy, but my brain keeps shorting out when I try to equate Voldemort and Santa Claus. ;)

Rowling doesn't seem to want to explore that conflict.

Interesting news came out today about something she posted on her website; I won't give details here in case you don't want to be spoiled for Book 6, but it's on The Leaky Cauldron. It made me all giddy and happy, I'll tell you that much.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

I think for Draco, Lucius is the powerful force that will make things right. I don't know that I could make a strong case for this from canon, but my view is very much that Draco does not really get that Voldemort is real.

We don't really disagree here. I don't think that for Draco Voldemort is a real person. He is more that... power-that-be. The mysterious "Dark Lord" (it appears that Dark wizards don't use the name "Voldemort" either), about whom the adults speak in hushed voices when they think he (Draco) can't hear them. Santa Claus is about right ;-) I would even say a 'god'. Sort of like Allah is for juvenile suicide bombers, you know? A concept they don't understand, but which stands behind everything they believe in and is not to be questioned. I am convinced that Draco knows nothing about the person 'Voldemort' (Death Eaters, apparently, don't know he's Muggle-born, as indicated during the MoM battle), but he is likely to have heard about a powerful 'Dark Lord' who wants to purify the wizarding world from Mudbloods and other scum. - And now that Umbridge woman walks around telling people that that powerful 'Dark Lord' doesn't exist. That's the thing that I thought might miff Draco. Especially since he doesn't understand.

I do consider fanon Draco as a character with lots of potential, BTW. But I can't like the boy, what with being an annoying, whiny prick.

[megstuff.livejournal.com]

I agree with what you're saying here, and it brings up another question I occasionally wonder about (or really, maybe the same question you originally asked!). Lucius is teaching Draco that Voldemort is this wonderful, important leader that is going to set the world right, and at the same time showing him that you can have alliances -- even if they are politically motivated -- with people who disagree with this core belief you have. How does a kid reconcile that? I mean, at some point doesn't he have to ask himself *why* these other people don't agree with Lucius? This probably is more of a tangent than JKR intends to go into, but the story is such an analogy of adolescence; and such a large part of adolescence is learning to think for yourself, that I wonder we don't see any of the kids becoming more independent thinkers. So far they seem to only react to what the adults tell them, but not to question in any meaningful way.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Hermione is quite an independent thinker. Harry too, to a degree. He has grown up not trusting adults, and so far, nothing has happened that could help him develop this trust. As to Draco, I wish Rowling would allow him to grow up. He's such a baby in many respects: his unhealthy obsession with Harry is ridiculous, and I wonder how a boy who keeps whining for his father every time he's in trouble could ever gain any respect among his peers. (I'm sorry, I don't want to diss your man... These are merely the things that annoy me about Draco's characterisation.)

Obviously, Rowling doesn't plan to trace the mechanics of growing-up using Draco. But even as a background character, antagonist and, to a degree, comic relief (he and Crabbe'n'Goil get turned into something nasty at the end of each school year on the train), he should still be allowed to mature alongside the heroes.

[megstuff.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I agree that any of the kids are independent thinkers, at least not fully. Possibly Hermione but definitely not Harry. I will try to make a case for this in my LJ tonight - since I have committed to posting some kind of essay or something every day in November!

I don't want to diss your man
Quite all right! It's not a diss if it's all true. But when you describe him like that I do have to stop and ask myself what exactly it is that I like about him, again?

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

But when you describe him like that I do have to stop and ask myself what exactly it is that I like about him, again?

Ah, but, you see, the like and dislike of single characters is not based on objective evaluation *g* I like Remus, lies, passive aggression and all, because I can reconcile with his flaws quite easily. Draco's flaws happen to be of that sort that I don't like - even though I can understand them to a degree.

I also agree that none of the kids are truly independent thinkers. Harry because, well, he's not much of a thinker. But he doesn't really rely on the judgement of the adults. Harry likes to have his own way and is stubborn, if nothing else. But I'm not thinking clearly tonight, so I'll leave it at that. Looking forward to your essay, though!

[morganmuffle]

I want to know where the Tonkses are so much, I really hope they are going to be important to the story. It strikes me that in the Black sisters we have a fairly good cross section of wizarding society. Bella is a DE, pureblood and proud of it. Andromeda is married to a Muggleborn and has a daughter who is an Auror and a member of the OotP. In the middle you then have Narcissa who we see as vaguely hostile (and there haven't been great signs for Harry that the wizarding world entirely trusts him just yet) but we have no real knowledge of her personal allegiance. She may be married to a Death Eater but that doesn't make her one!

(just surfing around on friendsfriends, hope you don't mind)

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

I wished they had let Sirius stay with Andromeda instead of forcing him to live in that rotten house that killed his soul. Poor Sirius. *sighs*

Anyway, I am curious how important the secondary characters introduced in OotP will become. Kingley, Hestia, Emmeline... I am inclined to agree with fluffyllama that they have only been introduced so that they can die in later books, because they didn't fulfil any important function. I wish we had seen more of the characters we've got a context for, you know? Like Bill Weasley and the Tonkses. I also really want to know more about Narcissa. I've never cared much about the Malfoys, but seeing as she's a Black puts her in the position of an important player in the HP verse. And I completely agree that being married to a Death Eater doesn't make her one - especially since I'm convinced that there is a distinction between initiated Death Eaters and normal Dark(ish) wizards.

(just surfing around on friendsfriends, hope you don't mind)

Of course not. I'm delighted about drive-by comments as well as friending.

[runespoor7.livejournal.com]

Here via daily-snitch to give my two Knuts, because I'm a little obsessed with Andromeda.

I think Ted and Andromeda weren't mentioned because they never were part of the Order. I see Andromeda as being more concerned with family than Sirius was; she was not about to take part in a war in which she could have been, directly or not, responsible for the death of one of her relatives or even her sister. I don't think she was stupid, and I'm of the opinion she knew perfectly well someone was going to join Voldemort. Moreover, it's probable she didn't want to endanger her baby daughter. Those people knew her; they knew how she was most likely to react, they knew how to hurt her, they knew what were her weak points. Ted, I imagine he could have understood her opinion, and shared her fear of losing her and Nymphadora.

Disappearing, or at least making themwelves scarce, could have been the wisest thing they could do; there was no point in becoming even bigger preys. Perhaps the Blacks' sense of family allowed them to let Andromeda stay alive with her Mudblood husband and her Mudblood infant if she didn't put herself between them and their goals. I don't think Nymphadora's parents knew she was part of the Order; Sirius doesn't mention ever seeing them again, and I think Andromeda would have wanted to see her cousin if she had learned he was innocent.

Of course, the situation is likely to change now Bellatrix killed Sirius and tried to kill Nymphadora...

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

I don't think Nymphadora's parents knew she was part of the Order;

That's an interesting thought. I always assumed that Ted and Andromeda were informed about what's going on. My issue with their absence from OotP is not so much directed against them (as in, what were their motives) but against Rowling, who could have mentioned, even in passing, what they were up to. I hope she will tell us about it in future books.

[cleverthylacine]

I'm a big Draco fan because he says a lot of the things that I want to say as I'm reading the books, and he reminds me a lot of myself as a kid (minus the blood stuff, because that isn't real).

And my thought about Draco in the Umbridge situation is this: What would have happened if he had refused the honours she wanted to give him? If there's going to be an Inquisitorial squad no matter what you do or say, which side of it do you want to be on?

Of course, I don't know many 15 year olds who could manage to resist the temptation to abuse that kind of power, especially if they have enemies who do, constantly, get away with breaking rules. I'd like to think I could have...but I doubt it.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Oh, I have no problem understanding why Draco decided to join the Inquisitorial Squad and launch a hunt for Gryffindors. The thing is rather that I don't see Draco as liking the Ministry's attitude with regard to Voldemort. As I said in some comments above, I believe that Draco grew up in an atmosphere of Voldemort worship: worship of a mysterious Dark Lord, a power that will rise to put things right (i.e. cleanse the society from Mudbloods and halfbreeds and such). I don't think Draco knows much (if anything) about who or what Voldemort is; but he knows that there is a Dark Lord who watches over wizardkind and whom his father supports (Draco knows about the Dark artefacts in Lucius' possession).

Based on these assumptions, I could imagine that he doesn't like the pompous Minister (and I believe that Lucius does not speak very respectfully of Fudge in private) and his lot deny that the powerful Dark Lord does even exist. For the wizarding society, Voldemort is dead, but for Draco, Voldemort is the potentially rising future power.

I am sure he loved being granted power at school. But I'm not sure that he could really think highly of Umbridge from the very start. And Draco does not strike me as someone who can conceal his dislike and act in a politic manner. Lucius probably nudged him into collaboration with Umbridge, but I think that Draco didn't really understand why he should support someone who denies the Dark Lord's greatness.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

But I'm not sure that he could really think highly of Umbridge from the very start. And Draco does not strike me as someone who can conceal his dislike and act in a politic manner.

I know this is old, but isn't that what stopped her bringing any of the IS along to see 'the weapon' at the end of OotP? She didn't trust them, him in specific, because he looks 'eager' when Hermione suggests the IS use the weapon on Umbridge.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly. I don't think that Draco can fake loyalties in the long run, and I can't imagine that he felt truly loyal to Umbridge.