Are wizards truly superior to Muggles?

[donnaimmaculata]

In his latest re-read of PS, pauraque pointed out how the possible positive effects magic would take on the Muggle world are disregarded by wizards, who are only concerned with their own safety: It seems likely that magic wouldn't just be of minor use to the Muggle world, but could also resolve major issues such as deadly disease and injury. Hagrid doesn't consider that, though -- it's about the wizards' convenience.

While I've got no doubt that this is the way wizards think, my opinion on the power balance between wizards and Muggles is rather different. Since my answer to pauraque filled two comments, I figured I could just as well repost it here.

Death and disease do exist in the wizarding world; they merely assume a different shape. We don't know how wizards handle diseases such as, say, influenza or cancer, but we know that they have a whole lot of their own, very specific and very nasty disease varieties. They might not have AIDS, but they have lycanthropy. St. Mungo's is full with patients who suffer from exotic diseases which don't exisit in the Muggle world, but which would follow the wizards there if a merger between the Muggle and wizarding worlds took place. I'm inclined to compare this process with the introduction of smallpox etc. by the white invaders to the natives in America.

Seeing as there is a fairly large number of wizards wearing glasses, we know that poor eyesight cannot be cured - nor pimples, when it comes to that, which indicates that magic is a very insufficient means when it comes to fighting "natural" handicaps.

Also, there is Mad-Eye Moody, who lacks a leg and an eye. While replacing the missing eye with a magical one might be very convenient, I don't think that Moody would have opted for a wooden leg if he had a choice. It seems that here the wizarding medicine encountered an injury that cannot be treated.

In conclusion, I think that inflicted injuries such as broken bones can be healed, but hereditary diseases, physical handicaps and magically inflicted diseases would prove rather more tricky.

fernwithy said: Here you have a group of people who can essentially do anything (not really, but it would seem that way at first) and who can blithely walk into a situation, wave a wand, and make people behave (and so on).

The thing is, they have to be properly trained to do so. The wizarding world is full of not highly qualified witches and wizards: the school drop-outs, for once, and possibly also the waiters, inn and shop keepers, conductors etc. I assume that they are able to use magic within their profession in a rather limited manner; Madam Malkin is probably good at charming material into shape, but she might have no clue how to transfigure a mouse into a tea cup. Plus, wizards depend on tools and instruments which were charmed prior to use to match specific applications, e.g. broomsticks. It's not possible for your ordinary wizard on the street to simply take an old broomstick, put a charm on it and use it as a means of transport.

This opens the whole and widely discussed question of magical education and the lack thereof, including the question of what would happen to Harry if he was forced to leave Hogwarts. At some point, he wonders whether he'd be allowed to stay as Hagrid's assistant. He would not be allowed to use magic and he would not know how to control his powers.

Essentially, what I'm trying to say is that, as a social group, wizards are not necessarily more powerful than Muggles. A highly skilled wizard with a wand that matches his skills and a profound knowledge of incantations - yes. But as we learned from Moody, "you could all get your wands out now and point them at me and say the words, and I doubt I'd get so much as a nose-bleed" (GoF, Chapt. 14).

In addition, the magical world is not further developed than the Muggle world, nor do they struggle less with every-day difficulties. In spite of the fact that Hermione's "Muggle Studies" book features "a diagram of Muggles lifting heavy objects", we know that wizards, too, have to physically lift things: in PS, Fred and George heave Harry's trunk on board of the Hogwarts Express; in OotP, Tonks straps the trunk into a harness attached to her broom and Lupin and Tonks carry the trunk between them to the door. They don't levitate it (or shrink it to carry it in their pocket, for that matter). And what sort of transport are broomsticks anyway? As we see in OotP, long-distance flights on broomsticks are no fun at all. (And Surrey-London is not really such a long distance, at that.) Plus, there is always the possibility of being spotted by Muggles, which is something to be avoided by all costs.

The other (legal) means of transport we saw include the Floo network, which is monitored by the Ministry and not safe to use if you are on the Ministry's black list, the Portkeys, which are monitored by the Ministry, Apparating, which is dangerous, requires an exam (hence, only available to highly qualified wizards) and, according to Arthur Weasley, is disregarded by many wizards in favour of broomsticks ("slower, but safer"), and the Ministry of Magic cars, which, well, belong to the Ministry of Magic. A pattern seems to emerge, no?

As to a direct confrontation between Muggles and wizards: Muggles might not have curses, but they have weapons. And what's more: they do have the notorious weapons of mass destruction, which wizards seem to lack. Wizards kill individually, using Avada Kedavra. IIRC, the only curse that killed many people at the same time is the one used by Peter to cover his escape, and that seemed to be an explosion rather than a curse targeting humans directly. Now, taking your opponents out one by one is a method of warfare that was abandoned by Muggles centuries ago.

I think that the wizards' conviction of their own superiority goes back to the times when Muggles were indeed weaker than wizards. However, after the separation between both worlds took place, Muggles have developed their own rather advanced technology, which could well be a match for magic.

Proud to be Muggle, yo!

ETA: This widely refers to the conviction voiced by Hagrid in PS: Why? Blimey, Harry, everyone'd be wantin' magical solutions to their problems. Nah, we're best left alone.'

Comments

[angelofthenorth.livejournal.com]

hmmmm

The non-use of spells for lifting in the cases cited all related to expediency and wizarding secrecy. As for broomstick flights - I get the suspicion that Moody took them on rather a long goose chase. Surrey to North London would be about 2.5 hours on a bike (I cycle from Sutton, Surrey to Central London quite often) and I rather reckon that they were going at the speed of the slowest broom.

I'm with you on most of the rest though. I wonder how many of the exotic diseases of wizards are genetic.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

The non-use of spells for lifting in the cases cited all related to expediency and wizarding secrecy.

Not necessarily: While students are not allowed to perform magic outside Hogwarts, the train seems to be some sort of legal no man's land, as is indicated by the fact that Harry, Ron and Hermione regularly hex Malfoy & cronies at the end of each term. They never get in trouble for that, and one should think that this is a much harsher offense than levitating a school trunk would be. I also always thought that it was very inconvenient to transport Harry's trunk the way Tonks did in OotP and then carrying it into Grimmauld Place. I mean, there is a bunch of a dozen or so wizards mounting brooms and flying off from a neat suburban front garden to a densely populated area in London - Muggles spotting a trunk being levitated should be the least of their worries.

The diseases we've seen so far seem all to be inflicted by some external influences - hexes, bites etc. Although wizards obviously can catch a cold, as they've got the Pepper-up Potion to prevent it.

[angelofthenorth.livejournal.com]

On the platform, however, there are parents and prefects.

And there's dragonpox.....

They all had disillusionment charms on them, however, which made me wonder whether there's any sort of doubt about the efficacy of mixing concealment charms with other sorts of magic?

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

On the platform, however, there are parents and prefects.

Yes, but I don't think that the presence of witnesses is decisive: the Ministry has means to trace underage magic, and they don't seem to be bothered by underage magic being performed on the train.

Dragonpox is a great example of a magical disease. My point was not that they don't exist; my point was that wizards have methods to treat specific magical diseases, which do not exist in the Muggle world. Therefore, magical remedies would not be of much use to Muggles - until magical maladies would start spreading among the Muggle population.

I don't think they all were placed under the Disillusionment Charm. First, it is not mentioned, and second, Harry can see them flying around him. ("Kingsley Shacklebolt swooped around him, bald pate and earring gleaming slightly in the moonlight", OotP, Chapt. 3) Which is why I think that flying around on broomsticks, in the moonlight, is a bit more conspicuous than levitating a trunk to the entrance of Grimmauld Place.

[ankhet.livejournal.com]

They all had disillusionment charms on them, however

Actually, I just re-listened to this part of OotP today, and the text seems to indicate that only Harry had the disillusionment charm on him

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

Seeing as there is a fairly large number of wizards wearing glasses, we know that poor eyesight cannot be cured

Wizards can't cure poor eyesight, but Muggles have a host of better remedies such as LASIK. The same for Moody's leg -- Muggle prosethetics are much more advanced; even if Moody couldn't use one with electronics, Muggle science figured out something better than what he's got *decades* ago.

Plus, wizards depend on tools and instruments which were charmed prior to use to match specific applications,

So do Muggles. I might understand how a computer works in principle, but I couldnt manufacturer one out of the raw components. I couldn't manufacture a *gun* out of the raw components, even though it's simpler than a computer, I use one often, and I know how to maintain it. The fact that wizards use charmed objects that the average wizard can't manufacture and that make their lives easier is no different than Muggles using manufactured goods, except that for the most part Wizards aren't as specialized nor using as complicated devices.

Really, the best case scenario for a Muggle/Wizard combined society would be synthesixed magi-technology. Being able to regrow fingers and bones by magic, being able to replace amputated limbs with technology.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly. What I was trying to express is my conviction that wizards are not superior to Muggles. They suffer from diseases/injuries of a different kind and have therefore developed different therapy methods. I was referring to the opinion voiced by Hagrid that everyone'd be wantin' magical solutions to their problems. While in some respect magic offers solutions superior to Muggle technology, it doesn't hence follow that Muggles would humbly welcome wizards as all-knowing providers of salvation.

I'm not saying Muggles are superior to wizards, either. Both societies face different challenges and have developed different solutions for them. I don't think therefore that a wizard is inherently more powerful than a Muggle.

[fleshdress.livejournal.com]

Another hmm...

You've raised some very interesting points here, and some that I shall definitely be pondering for some time. Would be interesting to see how Voldie reacts to a gun being pointed at him.

:)

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Can a bullet outfly a curse? Would Voldie know what a gun is in the first place?

Maybe Harry should be trained to kill Voldemort using Muggle methods. Just point and pull the trigger - no messing around with powers and mother's eyes and wands-which-don't-work-properly-against-each-other and whatnot.

[rosina-alcona.livejournal.com]

Voldie/Tom - lived in a muggle orphanage. I'd say he'd know what a gun was. And probably has protections against such things...

Hellova good comment above by the way. I'll comment more later

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

You know, I can't get rid of the image of Voldie and Harry caught in a proper Western-style duel, complete with cowboy hats and Ennio Morricone music.

[rosina-alcona.livejournal.com]

That would be BRILLIANT! And tumble weed blowing down the street.

The Harry in my head would look very silly in a cowboy hat, mind you!

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

It'd be slightly too big and slide down over his eyes.

tumble weed! *snerk*

[januarylight.livejournal.com]

And probably has protections against such things...

I've wondered about this. Would Voldemort, in distancing himself, disregard peculiarly Muggle threats? Given Hermione's apparent distance from her own world, and the patronising attitude of supposedly sympathetic wizards (i.e. Arthur), I haven't been able to come to a conclusion. I think the upheaval in the Muggle world may have affected Tom when he was a student, but would anyone have taken notice of nuclear weapons and machine guns and such? Given the state of things at the World Cup?

[rosina-alcona.livejournal.com]

I don't think Hermione is all that distanced from the Muggle world - she still goes home in the holidays to a pretty typical middle-class muggle world.

I don't see how wizards could really avoid being aware of the muggle world, seeing a lot of them don't live in exclusively wizarding areas. Ministry officials I always assumed had some kind of contact with high-ups in the British government...but that's just my guess!

Voldemort is a very powerful and brilliant wizard. I think he would know very well about nuclear bombs, especially as he would have still been in the orphanage during WW2. His father may even have had to fight in the war, although granted he didn't have any contact with his son.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'the state of things at the world cup'? I'm probably being slow cos it's quite early in the morning *g*

[januarylight.livejournal.com]

I've seen no indication that she's involved in the Muggle world beyond that, though. She goes home to her parents and then runs off to stay with the Weasleys. Her parents aren't involved in her life at the school. This is natural enough with things as they are, but I do think it's distance.

I assumed that about Ministry officials too, but we don't *see* wizards showing familiarity with Muggle things. Arthur Weasley isn't even familiar with telephones, and it's his job. Wouldn't you expect the average wizard to have less knowledge? (Of course, Rowling may have meant the telephone stuff solely as comic relief. I think that was a mistake, if so.) As for the World Cup, I was half-remembering problems with clothing and money. What you say makes sense, but I don't think it's what we're shown.

It would also make sense for Voldemort to be brilliant, but is that what we've been shown? Foiled! by those damn kids! and all. :D No, you're right about the timing, sorry. But Tom was raised as if he'd been a Muggle-born. Do you think that knowledge would be widespread? Would you expect Neville Longbottom to have it?

To get back to the original point, though: Voldemort was fighting his war in the wizarding world. *Do* you think he would have thought it necessary to develop a spell to protect himself from guns? Why? What sort of scenario are you envisioning? I'm still in two minds about it. And what sort of protection? A bullet would beat all that wand-waving and all those long syllables in a race, so something like the spell to keep water off glasses?

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

At the World Cup, Ministry wizards were seen walking around in "a kilt and a poncho", thus making Mr. Roberts suspicious. They don't seem to have a clue about the Muggle way. And Arthur wasn't able to pay with Muggle money; he had to ask Harry for help.

(Of course, Rowling may have meant the telephone stuff solely as comic relief. I think that was a mistake, if so.)

Personally, I am inclined to contribute a lot of the stuff that doesn't make sense to Rowling. She likes to exaggerate certain characteristics/actions in order to entertain. After all, the books do target a children audience; it's not her fault some adults with too much time on their hand insist on picking apart each and every detail she's ever mentioned in passing *g*

It would also make sense for Voldemort to be brilliant, but is that what we've been shown?

Hah! Yes, exactly. For me, Voldemort and Dumbledore are both relics from, well, children literature. Throughout the first four books, Dumbledore only appears to hand out plot devices and offer a neat conclusion at the end. We are told both he and Voldemort are uber-powerful and brilliant, and yet they never do anything brilliant (or uber-powerful, for that matter). In OotP, this annoyed me in particular during the battle at the DoM, where a group of Death Eaters fought against a bunch of kids handily using the spells the kids had learned at school. I mean, if you are an evil Death Eater, your opponents can expect you to use badass curses like, oh, the "may your flesh dissolve" hex.

I find it difficult to discuss Voldemort's motives as the character's motives. Voldemort is used by Rowling to symbolise Teh Evil, and everything that he does (or neglects doing) is because she needs him to fulfill this function. But anyway, as Muggleborns tend to sever the ties to the Muggle world and Voldemort in particular doesn't want his Muggle heritage to be known, I doubt he would consider either making use of Muggle weapons or create any methods of protection. As far as he is concerned, Muggle methods are icky and he does not hold with such things.

[januarylight.livejournal.com]

I was too lazy to go look it up. Thanks! :D I'm often rather critical of Rowling too. But I do hope that this is deliberate world-building, because she seems to have been consistent about it. The Muggle Studies class seems to indicate that she knows what she's doing, too.

And, yeah, Voldemort and Dumbledore are less characters, more roles. I was thinking that about Hermione, too: her autonomy is pretty usual in school stories; she wouldn't be much out of place in, say, Mallory Towers. But in the world Rowling's created, it's faintly sinister. As are other things that would be fine in other stories, like Dumbledore. I'd probably think he was a decent Head in the normal run of things, but in Harry Potter? People are trying to kill the hero, and Big Brother isn't helping.

You're right about Voldemort's lack of characterisation, but I think we can still look at the situation, rather than the character, and extrapolate. I agree with you. But then I think that if I were Justin Finch-Fletchley I'd probably be huddled under the covers with my father's shotgun. And then I wonder if Hogwarts takes them over so much that it just wouldn't occur to the Muggleborns.

And I meant to tell you that I really liked your original post, but then I got distracted. Sorry. :)

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Ah, I've been listening to the GoF audiobook and I happened to listen to the World Cup chapter the other day, so the memory was quite fresh ;-)

I agree that Rowling makes a point of showing that wizards don't have a clue about Muggle technology - by saysing "mentioned in passing" I was speaking in more general terms. However, I do also think that a large part of it is meant to be funny: the weird combinations of Muggle clothes, Hagrid's comments on parking meters, Ron's amazement over Dean's immobile football poster. It serves the purpose of emphasising how isolated the wizarding world is, certainly, but I'm sure we are supposed to laugh about the silliness of it, too.

but I think we can still look at the situation, rather than the character, and extrapolate.

Oh, you're right there. Only, I like to remind myself from time to time that we are not talking about real humans here but of characters who serve certain literary purposes. This is a help when I get carried away pondering about some details that don't fit the overall characterisation and make no sense whatsoever. Many inconsistencies can be thus explained ;-)

But then I think that if I were Justin Finch-Fletchley I'd probably be huddled under the covers with my father's shotgun.

It seems as though by going to Hogwarts the children sign a pact to leave their old lives as Muggles behind. On the other hand, they are forced to live as Muggles during the holidays (restrictions of underage wizardry)... Hm. An inconsistency which can be explained by saying, "Rowling needs it for plot purposes".

It doesn't make any sense whatsoever that children can simply switch between the Muggle and the magical world without any apparent difficulties. Especially when they go back to their Muggle lives during the holidays. I mean, their parents are not the only people they encounter; there are the old kindergarden friends and neighbours and a whole lot of other folks, who might inquire after the kids' progress at school. (Harry, of course, is an exception, and again, Rowling neatly avoided having to deal with the problem of old friends by making Harry isolated from the very start.)

Heh! Getting distracted is a good thing! Happens to me all the time!

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

I don't think Hermione is all that distanced from the Muggle world - she still goes home in the holidays to a pretty typical middle-class muggle world.

I wonder though - what do Muggleborns do during their summer holidays? Hermione might be a bit of a loner, who spends all her time studying, and Harry's got no friends, but take Dean Thomas for example. He might have some old kindergarden friends or the boys next door he used to play football with, but when he comes back home, he can't really tell them anything about his school. After a while, the kids must become quite isolated, what with never giving any information on how they spend 10 months out of 12. No wonder Remus is such a good liar: He probably spent all his holidays in a Muggle environment concealing being a wizard in addition to his spending his school year concealing being a werewolf. Lying is his second nature! (Yes, I can always sneak in some reference to Remus, thankyouverymuch.)

Ministry officials I always assumed had some kind of contact with high-ups in the British government

They have. In PoA, someone points out that the Muggle PM was informed about Sirius' escape. There is some sort of cooperation between them.

Voldemort probably knows about Muggle weapons (and you're right; he was right there when WWII was going on!), but I think he disregards them, because they're Muggle.

At the World Cup, the Ministry wizards were walking around in "a kilt and a poncho". Arthur himself had no idea about Muggle money, and Amos Diggory called "policemen" "please men". Considering that the Ministry does collaborate with Muggles in some way or other, this is quite a poor performance.

[rosina-alcona.livejournal.com]

what do Muggleborns do during their summer holidays?

I'm kind of interested in how or why they don't tell muggles about where they go to school.

It could be that somedo tell their childhood friends where they go to school. Their friends would probably think they're crazy or making up stories for attention and don't believe them. That would probably have been my reaction if someone I had gone to Primary school with calmly informed me they were training to be a wizard.

It could also be a special arrangement for muggleborns that they can't tell other muggles outside their family about Hogwarts (kind of like the 'sneak' charm Hermione put on the DA members list) - mind you we've never heard anything about this, so perhaps unlikely?

Boys don't talk anyway - they just put two jumpers down as goal posts and play football for the entire Summer holiday *g* (hey you've got a brother, you must know this!) Dean could get on perfectly well not mentioning school at all and just talking about West Ham!

But as for the others - yeah a certain amount of isolation, but they perhaps take it in turns to visit each other - Dean and Seamus for example see one another in the holidays, and the trio of course.

Arthur may be incompetant and patronising, but I still can't help liking him (bless him, as he would say...) It's ironic that he looks at muggles almost like pets while being completely incapable of using even the simplest muggle devices!

Mind you, I'm a bit like that myself on holiday till I get the hang of another currency - in Mongolia I was a nightmare, because they've got Chinggis Khan on almost ALL the notes and I got hopelessly confused!

And what's wrong with a kilt and a poncho? Highly stylish in Scotland, that is! *checks outfit in mirror*

The Ministry kind of echo many governments' inability to learn about other countries/cultures, don't you think?

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

I would have been lost in Mongolia, I'm sure. I'm hopeless with foreign currency. Nevermind any economical implications - I cherish the Euro for allowing me to confidently shop throughout Europe. (Britain's a bit tricky, of course. But aren't they in every respect? *cough* driving *cough*)

Hm, whatever the solution is that keeps Muggleborn student from telling their friends about Hogwarts - the result must be isolation in some form.

they just put two jumpers down as goal posts and play football for the entire Summer holiday *g* (hey you've got a brother, you must know this!)

Both my brothers broke their arm playing football. That put them right off *g*

Dean would have missed all the West Ham matches during the year, though. Unless he has his parents tape them so he can watch them all after his return home to be able to talk about them... Hm.

Mate 1: And there was that brilliant goal Crew scored in the second half, did you see how he [insert football terminology here]
Dean: Um... no...
Mate 2: And Arsenal's new goalie is hopeless! Did you see him [insert more football terminology]
Dean: No...
Mate 1: Where've you been, mate? On Mars?
Dean: Well, actually, I've been at this school for witchcraft and wizardry in Scotland, cause I'm a wizard, really, but I can't proove it right now, cause I'm not allowed to do any magic during the holidays, but it's true, and there's this really evil wizard who wants to take over the world... Hey! Where're you going?

I like Arthur, too. He's such an avuncular type. And he's really nice to his children (as opposed to Molly, who only shouts at them).

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Well, seeing as the majority of the wizard population don't know what a gun is ("It's a sort of wand that Muggles use to kill each other," is the explanation given by the Daily Prophet/Ministry in PoA regarding Sirius), I doubt that they know anything about Muggle weapons. Voldemort might or might know, but I think he doesn't care. Muggle technology is something he totally disregards in his plans.

[dementedsiren.livejournal.com]

Two things:

I don't think that Moody would have opted for a wooden leg if he had a choice. It seems that here the wizarding medicine encountered an injury that cannot be treated.
-I've always been of the opinion that magical malidies were more difficult to treat by magical means. While you see the opposite in fanfic (Oh Harry has the flu and you can't mix magic with muggle stuff, etc.) I've personally been of the opinion that, for example, Moody's wounds would be something magical that magic could not cure. If his leg was cursed off, rather than hacked off, then you'd almost have to uncurse it to fix it, and there may not have been a countercurse available.

I've also found that most magical remedies can have severe and possibly painful side effects - remembe the Skelegrow? Granted, it did it's job, but it was painful and nasty, and I imagine it could have been even worse had it been trying to heal, say, the facial bones - which are necessary to a certain extent and would have a much higher risk in regrowing (imagine your nose being fused with your brain...ick)


Madam Malkin is probably good at charming material into shape, but she might have no clue how to transfigure a mouse into a tea cup.
-I've always believed Hogwarts was the equivalent of primary, secondary and high school education (in the US that would be grades 3-12 I suppose...not sure what it would be in other countries). That said, graduating from Hogwarts is like receiving your high school diploma - it is no gaurantee that you are a stellar witch/wizard or have extended knowledge of things. That said, Madame Malkin, the shop keepers, innkeepers and such may be Magic School graduates, and just not have gone on beyond that. Meaning that they should be able to do the basic 1st through 7th year magic to some extent, which includes basic transfiguration, charms, potions, etc. And while they, like (say) Neville, may not have been talented in one area or another, they were still exposed to it and learnt it to a certain degree of familiarity (again, much like the 'muggle' education system - I'm not good at it, but I've taken physics, and have a passable understanding of the basics...much the same way I assume NEville would have a passable understanding of potions)

Okay, so there's a third thing
Wizards kill individually, using Avada Kedavra
-as far as we know - we've seen the wizarding world through Harry's rather biased and uneducated eyes...who knows what othe spells are out there.
seemed to be an explosion rather than a curse targeting humans directly
Yes, Peter's spell did seem to be like that. But then again, weapons of mass destruction don't target humans, they cause a huge explosion in a targeted area. So one could argue Peter used a (very very limited) weapon of mass destruction, much like suicide bomber.

/ranting reply *g*

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

I don't think you're really disagreeing with me *g*

I've always been of the opinion that magical maladies were more difficult to treat by magical means.

Exactly. Wizards have their magical diseases and cure them the best they can. Muggles have their non-magical diseases and cure them the best they can. Wizards wouldn't have any cures for Muggle diseases, because there has been no need for them to develop them. Which is basically my point. I was referring to Hagrid's saying that if Muggles knew about wizards, everyone'd be wantin' magical solutions to their problems. Now while this might have been the case 1000 or so years ago, when Hogwarts was founded, this is very unlikely to be true in our modern world, which is quite advanced in its own right and doesn't need no stinkin' magic to get along, thankyouverymuch!!1. First, wizards don't have the solutions for Muggle problems, and second, the magical society is not more highly developed than the Muggle one.

That said, graduating from Hogwarts is like receiving your high school diploma - it is no gaurantee that you are a stellar witch/wizard or have extended knowledge of things.

Yes. And this is why I doubt that your average witch or wizard is intrinsically more powerful than a Muggle. Wizards have magical powers which can put them in the position of acquiring bad-ass skills, but they need to learn about those powers in order to apply them properly. And, just like Muggles, they need to practise their skills. If Madam Malkin never has to transfigure mice into tea cups, the skill will probably fade in time. Just like my knowledge of trigonometry has faded after I finished school.

we've seen the wizarding world through Harry's rather biased and uneducated eyes...who knows what othe spells are out there.

The implication has so far been that Avada Kedavra is the most powerful thing there is; the way the three Unforgivables are introduced certainly gives that impression. Personally, I also think that there should be some more advanced Dark curses around (if only because nothing we've seen so far would have made Moody's leg fall off to never been regrown again). But: wizards do seem to think very much in terms of one-on-one combat. The battle at the Department of Mysteries consisted of duels between two opponents respectively. McGonagall says that the reason why Peter was killed by Sirius was that he has always been hopeless at duelling, which again implies that duelling is considered the major method of fighting.

But these, of course, are mere speculations.

[dementedsiren.livejournal.com]

But...but...I want to be disagreeable =P

everyone'd be wantin' magical solutions to their problems Hagrid says, and while everyone in the Muggle world may not need magical solutions, don't you think most would want them? I agree that not everyone needs them, which I think is what you're saying. However, I can also see some people who could easily be cured in a "Muggle" way wanting magical solutions because they think it will be better/easier/spiffier/more magical (duh).

Also, Muggles can not enchant their cars to fly, and we all know everyone wants a flying car (although the flying car incident is yet more proof that Muggle + Magic does not mix...what should be a regular levitating charm turns into something frightening when Arthur attempts to make the car fly...that, or it proves that Arthur may not be so good at his pet project).

However, for me, Hagrid's comment points out something much more insidious, which you touched on earlier in your comment. Wizards assume, much as they claim the Muggles would, that their solutions would be better for the Muggles. Hagrid's comment implies a sort of "There there, child" condescending attitude that has always rubbed me the wrong way.

wizards do seem to think very much in terms of one-on-one combat.
That's true. And I think that is way "sirius's" method of killing peter - injuring so many bystanders - was considered to be so reprehensible and barbaric.

[rosetapestry.livejournal.com]

However, for me, Hagrid's comment points out something much more insidious, which you touched on earlier in your comment. Wizards assume, much as they claim the Muggles would, that their solutions would be better for the Muggles. Hagrid's comment implies a sort of "There there, child" condescending attitude that has always rubbed me the wrong way.

Exactly. There Hagrid is showing the prevailing attitude among wizards - many just assume that they're better than muggles, (and some purebloods think they're better than mudbloods, and even half-bloods). And it's easy to think that way when you don't know any better - most magic-born wizards don't really have much experience with the muggle world and its advanced technology. Doesn't everyone want to believe that they have the best way of doing things?

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

And it's easy to think that way when you don't know any better - most magic-born wizards don't really have much experience with the muggle world and its advanced technology.

Exactly. The problem also is that wizards are not interested in learning about Muggle technology, and even if they are (Arthur Weasley), the results are meagre. Then again, maybe Arthur is just exceptionally stupid when it comes to technology? I'm sure I'd be.

Most wizards, however, consider Muggle technology as not worth their attention, and even the Muggleborns discard of Muggle devices without apparent difficulties - they all write with quills and send letters by owl post, even though the Muggle alternatives would be just as available (I'm thinking of Hermione sending letters to Harry during summer).

[ankhet.livejournal.com]

Wizards kill individually, using Avada Kedavra
-as far as we know - we've seen the wizarding world through Harry's rather biased and uneducated eyes...who knows what othe spells are out there.

actually, right after Sirius explains that Voldy is looking for a weapon, and then everyone is sent to bed, Ron, Harry, Fred and George speculate that this weapon might be a way of killing "lots of people at the same time" (or something very close to that). That seems to imply that there is no such curse, even that those who have grown up in the wizarding world know of.

[glitzer.livejournal.com]

Well... magic oculd not cure Moody's leg. A missing leg could not be 'regrown' by muggles either. However, in muggle medicine very very slick and lifelike prosthesis are available that would look and work better then an old fashioned wooden peg! For wizards a counter curse may not have been available but it seems that Moody could have been helped more by a muggle Orthopaedic Surgeon and a Physiotherapist than he was by the wizard healers.

And muggle drugs can also have very severe and painfully unbearable sideeffects. Cancer chemotherapeautic drugs are well know for that. Steroids often the mainstray of treatment for several diseases mess up the body totally.

And if there was a nasty fracture of the skull, I doubt even wizards would survive very long. It is an acute emergency requiring immediate management and I am sure you can't wait for a day to fix the bone (or regrow it if Lockhart is around)

And thats it... just felt like discussing the cures.

[schwitters.livejournal.com]

Quite an interesting topic! I agree with you on this-- I've always thought that the whole patronising viewpoint on 'helpless' muggles was a bit off, almost like Westerners (or any culture, for that matter) who consider themselves superior to foreigners with traditions and ways of living that are different than their own.

Both wizards and muggles both have their ways of dealing with things in equally effective ways, though one may have some in advantages in one area, while the other may have superiorities in another area. But then, it's rather like that with any culture. There's a lot to be learned by keeping an open mind towards those who have different knowledge than what you've got, I suppose. You never know when it might come in use. (Perhaps some unexpected and non-magical methods would help in the defeat of Voldie/the DE more so than trying the same old duelling methods?)

Am blathering. Sorry. :P

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

I've always thought that the whole patronising viewpoint on 'helpless' muggles was a bit off, almost like Westerners

Yes, exactly. Of course, the isolation of wizards is also due to the fact that Rowling wanted to create an entirely separated world. She neatly avoids having to deal with the implications of Muggles with wizard children by showing us the interaction through Harry's eyes exclusively, who, in the Muggle world, interacts only with the Dursleys. He's got no other relatives nor any friends, with whom he might want to stay in touch.

But this is an entirely different topic. However, it is decisive insofar as there will never be a merger between wizards and Muggles and thus no knowledge and technology exchange.

Perhaps some unexpected and non-magical methods would help in the defeat of Voldie/the DE more so than trying the same old duelling methods?

I've been wondering about this, too. But as Voldemort has achieved some level of immortality (we know this has always been his aim and that he succeeded to a certain degree), it might be well possible that he can't be simply shot dead.

[scarah2.livejournal.com]

Hi, here from snitch :)

And what's more: they do have the notorious weapons of mass destruction, which wizards seem to lack.

In total agreement. Muggles have technology that could keep the most powerful wizard awake nights. And it evolves every day. Not to mention, it seems the wizarding population has difficulty keeping its numbers up, judging from Ron's comment about them having to breed with Muggles or they'd have died out ages ago. Muggles breed like wildfire.

I think one thing all of this illustrates is that even if the separatists (i. e. "bad guys") don't have the best interests of the world at heart, and even if some of their means are reprehensible, their fears did not originate in a vacuum. Muggles can be a real threat.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

It'd be interesting to know whether there are any wizards who realise that Muggles can be a threat. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any who wouldn't either consider Muggles inferior and patronise them or consider Muggles inferior and antagonise them.

Not to mention, it seems the wizarding population has difficulty keeping its numbers up, judging from Ron's comment about them having to breed with Muggles or they'd have died out ages ago.

I wonder how they get to meet any Muggles, though. The normal approach for wizards when they encounter a Muggle is to obliviate them - not exactly a promising start towards a relationship. Then again, maybe wizards marry Muggles who have wizard relatives, thus making sure that the Muggle in question knows about the magical world and perhaps also increasing the chance for breeding magical offspring ;-)

[amberdiceless.livejournal.com]

[Here via The Daily Snitch (http://www.livejournal.com/community/daily_snitch/) or The Quick Quote (http://www.livejournal.com/community/quickquote/)]

I tend to assume that by "They'd want magic solutions to their problems" Hagrid meant, "If they knew about magic, they'd assume we could fix anything, and would demand solutions we don't have."

As for Alastor Moody, I don't take him as proof of much of anything, for two reasons. First, he's been around a while, and we know that magical "technology" advances just as ours does. It's possible that if he suffered his injuries today, Healers would be able to regenerate the eye and the leg, where they couldn't do so when it actually happened.

Second, he's a paranoid old coot. Even if regenerated limbs were possible, I can quite easily see him refusing to put himself under a Healer's care for an extended period of time, if slapping a wooden leg on would be faster than growing a real one. Plus, he seems prone to serious injury...why go to the trouble of having your leg fixed, just to see it blown off again in a few years? Much easier to replace a prosthetic. And who knows what sorts of surprises he might have hidden inside...

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

"If they knew about magic, they'd assume we could fix anything, and would demand solutions we don't have."

But by saying this, Hagrid implies that Muggles would consider wizard solutions as inherently better than their own, which I don't think would be the case. Not only because magical solutions are not necessarily further developed, which Muggles would soon realise, but also because many Muggles would be suspicious of magical solutions just as wizards are of the Muggle ones. Hermione's parents are a great example: they don't let her have her teeth magically reduced, because "teeth and magic don't mix".

This is a line of thought that Hagrid (and most other wizards) is unable to adapt, because he not only thinks wizard technology is superior but also that Muggles think it is.

As to Alastor Moody, he might have been injured many years back, but if there has been technological progress in the meantime, it should be possible to provide him with a leg better than the wooden peg he's got now, which seriously restricts him in his movements. If he was still an active Auror, I think than he would opt for a properly working leg rather than submitting to his fate because it might be blown off again.

[rosina-alcona.livejournal.com]

All this makes me wish that Harry would just bloody well read 'Hogwarts: a history' and give us some information!

Apparating, which is dangerous, requires an exam (hence, only available to highly qualified wizards)

I always assumed that JK meant the apparating exam to be the same as the UK driving test, i.e. you take a test when you're 17, you shouldn't drive/apparate without it (although it's physically possible to do so) and it's taught outside school. Therefore, although it's dangerous (like driving) you don't need to be top of the class to do it, if you've been taught properly...

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Hm, I'd agree that the Apparating exam is similar to the driving exam. I've been just listening to GoF, where Apparating is introduced, and according to Arthur Weasley Apparating is quite dangerous. People can splinch themselves, and apparently this is something that happens on a regular basis. My point was basically that wizards seem to have only the Ministry-monitored (Floo, Portkeys) and dangerous and frequently disregarded (Apparating) ways of travelling. There don't seem to be any private/anonymous means of mass transport, like cars or busses or trains.

here via daily snitch

[bitmaxmouse.livejournal.com]

Actually, I'll take the extreme side and say that Muggles are far more superior than wizards. Basically because Muggles don't have powers like wizards do. Therefore by necessity, they are forced to find ways to harness power or create machines that aid them.

If Muggles wanted to make robes, we could probably have a completely computer controlled machine that spits out hundreds of robes in the time that it takes Madam Malkin to make a couple of robes.

I think we sort of have a misconception of how advanced we really are due to a lot of things that secret organizations and the goverment keep under wraps.

For example, a company like Cern collects hundrends of brilliant scientists from all over the world, pays them very well, and pampers them while they just come up with one invention after another.

Note that Tom Riddle grew up in a bad orphanage, perhaps a faily undeducated environment. He may know about the atomic bomb... but I mean, compared to what we have today, the atomic bomb is small beans. The government doesn't like admit that, yes, there is a particle accelerator under Sweden and France where they make antimatter (which has the power of 10 atomic bombs in a drop just barely visible by the naked eye). So yeah... Muggles could probably blow up the earth with a cup full of this stuff contained in a vaccum canister the size of a coke can.

And who cares if Wizards can make muggle cars fly. We have a jet plane that can go 10,000 mph. You could go from New York to Tokyo in about an hour. I'd like to see them try that with a firebolt.

Moreover, if wizards did exist, Muggles would know about it. Heck, with all our satellites hovering about the earth. The government could definitely find out about Wizards and they probably would be watching them like a hawk. Making sure they don't making a wrong move.

Seeing as how we are messing up the earth, I'm pretty sure we're going to have to evacuate it and find a way to colonize outer space. While wizards haven't even made any sort of effort to go into space. And do we even know if wizards have powers once they leave earth?

~~~
I'll have to disagree that Wizards are immune to Muggle diseases. I think they're just as prone to cancers as we are. If you've taken genetics or biology classes, you'll know that cancers are caused by breakage in your DNA (I don't even think wizards know what DNA is). The harmful mutation that causes cancer can be caused by daily simple things: genetics, the sun, food you eat, or some bad habits (like smoking). Cancer isn't something simple like an illness, it's something that has gone wrong with your DNA and is causing problems in your body. In other words, you can't cure it, you have to fix it. If wizards had cancer, I think they would be even further behind us in efforts towards fixing it. I mean, so far, we've only come close to having a breakthrough with brain cancer, but that's because we utilize retroviruses and your brain cells don't divide... etc.

Re: here via daily snitch

[bitmaxmouse.livejournal.com]

sorry, I meant Switzerland, not Sweden.

Re: here via daily snitch

[bitmaxmouse.livejournal.com]

Sorry... I keep flooding your post with comments...

I did a bit more research, apparently, they're also building a particle accelerator in the UK too. It's in Oxfordshire, created by the RAL, and due to open in 2007. I guess if Voldemort were observant enough and he had more patience, he could have found out about this and just blown up most of the world with it.

Re: here via daily snitch

[dphearson.livejournal.com]

We have a jet plane that can go 10,000 mph. You could go from New York to Tokyo in about an hour. I'd like to see them try that with a firebolt.

Best.Line. Of. The. Day.

And as for genetic/acquired diseases, I think that pureblooded wizards and witches may be prone to dieases that we see in bred people- like madness, liver dysfunctional, metabolic oopsies and cancer.