Some thoughts on wizard fashion...

[donnaimmaculata]

...Or: What sort of underwear do they wear?

Nah. I'm not going to talk about Snapey's pants or Sirius' black silk boxers. (Or was it Draco's?) But there is something that vaguely annoys me as one of the things that don't really make sense within the universe Rowling created. (And because I am dodging work, as usual.) So: Traditional wizard wear consists of long robes worn over underwear, right? No trousers for student!Snape, nor for old Archie nor for Albus himself (so we assume, though I really don't want to dwell on this particular image). Old wizards also tend to wear long hair and beards. Obviously, Rowling based her conception of wizard style on a very traditional image of wizards and witches, pointy hats and all. However, Molly Weasley, who comes from a traditional wizard family and is only marginally acquainted with Muggle culture, does not accept Bill's long hair as an aspect of proper wizard fashion. It is Percy, with his nicely trimmed hair and his horn-rimmed glasses, who is the ideal son. It is one of those inconsistencies that annoy me, because Rowling obviously screwed up the internal logic of the HP universe: Her Percy is the standard Head Boy/bureaucrate nerd of the Muggle world, not of the wizarding world. Percy is the personification of rules and old wizard values, which, however, differ from those in our world. Wizards like Percy don't assume Muggle fashion (short hair and jeans). They wear old-fashioned robes and grow a beard.

As to the old What-do-they-wear-under-those-robes? question: It is my personal convicion that, though the older generation as well as more traditional wizards like a healthy breeze around their privates, the younger generation tends to wear trousers. Even the Weasley children wear jeans when not in school (they have to change on the train) (on a side note: Harry and Ron change on the train while Hermione is in the same compartment, which leads me to the assumption that they merely pull on the robes over their Muggle-style clothes) - and they come from a traditional wizard family with no real knowledge of the Muggle world. As to the adult generation: While Snape, presumably a pure-blood who has spent all his life either at Hogwarts or in Voldemort's gang, is a healthy-breeze candidate, Remus, who is a half-blood and moves around the Muggle world dressed like a Muggle (OotP) would surely appreciate a pair of trousers now and again, especially if it's cold or he's in danger of having to run away very quickly, which is much easier when not wearing a dress. And then there's Sirius, who used to ride a Muggle motorbike. Even if one's not an outspoken supporter of LeatherTrousers!Sirius (I'm not.) (Ew), it stands to reason that he wouldn't ride a bike wearing merely his robes, if only because of the aesthetical aspect (hitched-up robes; hairy calves). Besides, there's the fact that Kreacher was snogging Mr. Black's old pair of trousers in OotP. Subtle hints as to Father Black's affinity towards Muggle things? Or merely another of Rowling's lapses in logic?

Comments

[asphodeline.livejournal.com]

I am much bothered by the dress code too - there are too many inconsistencies for my liking. HOwever, I am now completely devoid fo sensible comment becuase my smutty mind is now concentrating on Snape being a healthy breeze candidate !

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

*eg* We know he is. The grey underpants and the grey nightshirt are dead giveaways. (Plus, we know it gives him a helluva kick running around amidst all the children with nothing but his undies underneath. The old perv.)

[sparrohawk.livejournal.com]

Wow! Thanks for posting this.

It's somthing I've been puzzling over, because in writing Lucius for hp_dungeons, I wonder sometimes what the hell the man is wearing. Although he's a traditionalist to the core... I can't see him in just a robe and undies. I put him in trousers, with robes over. Or have him naked when I can, but that's another story.

Anyway, I really appreciate your putting thoughts together on it. Much more coherent than my own "general feelings".

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Heh! You're welcome. Glad you found this coherent - and helpful. It is one of the smallish problems that are nagging on me when writing fanfic, because it is something that doesn't make sense and yet I have to incorporate it in my stories. (Obviously, I spend much more time considering the different layers of wizardig clothing (and how to remove them) than Rowling does.)

because in writing Lucius for hp_dungeons, I wonder sometimes what the hell the man is wearing.

Yeah, I can see that. Lucius is so... manly. It's hard to imagine him in something that is, de facto, a dress.

I tend to put these guys in trousers. But hey, I like the process of taking off a pair of trousers, so there...

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

I'm all for the older generation going commando for quicker come togethers

Bet you do, you dirty doglover, you.

I like trousers. I like peeling them having them peel each other out of their trousers.

But personal preferences aside: It might be just me, not giving Rowling enough credit for subtext, but I don't think that wizards like Arthur and Molly wear Muggle-style hair because they don't want to be recognised for what they are. I mean, they have no idea how to dress as Muggles, even though Arthur works in the Muggle department - they are hardly aware of Muggle-style fashion. I don't think they see such details.

Besides, Molly's reaction to Bill's hair is not that of a woman worried about his being found out as a wizard. It's the reaction of a mother who wishes for a bank accountant son but gets a new metal musician. And Percy, whose entire life has been spent in a purely wizard environment (his parents' house, Hogwarts, the Ministry) has no reason to wear a Muggle haircut. He has no occasion of knowing about Muggle haircuts at all. As to keeping the whole wizarding society secret: The wizard on the street wears robes, after all, and robes are a more striking feature than a haircut.

Sirius is a naturist. Oh no, I'm not confounding him with the guy who plays Aragorn.

Heh! But even Aragorn wears some sort of manly legwear!

*finds the image of Biker!Sirius' hairy calves sticking out from under those robes somewhat disturbing*

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

It's not even the hair calves that bother me with no-pants!Sirius on the bike, but the cold and all those motorcycle parts you're exposing yourself to. Plus, having straddled a non-moving Harley in a skirt, I can tell you, there will be chafing at high speeds, and add to that the flying and the cold .... there's a nice breeze about the privates and then there's a stiff wind at 80mph, possibly up above the cloud cover. Brrr...

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

For some reason, I find the image of Sirius' thin, pale, hairy legs protruding from under the robes while he's trying to be all cool and suave riding his flashy bike quite hilarious. But, you know, that's my infantile sense of humour.

I used to ride a motorbike in my youth. And I made the mistake of wearing a skirt only once. The cold aspect is well illustrated by the rescue mission in OotP: it takes place during a hot summer, and yet Harry is freezing on his broom - and Sirius' kewl bike is surely much faster than even a racing broom. (Sirius would see to that.)

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

I find the image of Sirius' thin, pale, hairy legs protruding from under the robes while he's trying to be all cool and suave riding his flashy bike quite hilarious. But, you know, that's my infantile sense of humour.

Oh, I think it's hilarious too, but uncool, and Sirius would never be caught doing something that uncool. Not at that stage of his life.

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

I suspect that the Weasleys wear Muggle clothes in part because of economics. Muggle clothes are widely available (if you're willing to go into Muggle shops to get them) and thus probably much cheaper than wizardly clothes. Even with having to exchange Galleons for pounds, money would go further if one shopped in Muggle discount for underthings and summer clothes.

Wizard fashions take a LOT of fabric, after all, and probably expensive fabric to boot. Wool and linen as opposed to polyester blends could easily triple the price of clothing, plus Madame Malkin's isn't exactly what I'd call mass produced.

Molly's distress over Bill's hair may be similarly class/economics related. It's all right for rich ot high-status wizards like Malfoy and Dumbledore to wear long hair, but Bill's long hair might be seen as pretentious, as he is a working curse-breaker, which seems to be a technical position -- acceptable and honest, but not high status.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

But I think it's only the Weasley children who wear Muggle clothes. Harry comments on it at some point (could be GoF), explicitly stating that even though the Weasley children wear Muggle jeans during the holidays, their parents have no idea about how to dress as Muggles.

Lupin wears wizard robes too, when in the wizarding world. In PoA, it might be the Hogwarts dress code, but he also wears robes in OotP, where he is free to choose his own clothes. (Speaking of OotP: I am convinced that riding a broomstick, such as during the rescue mission, wearing a robe with nothing underneath is dead cold. Not to mention the hairy calves...)

Molly's distress over Bill's hair may be similarly class/economics related. It's all right for rich ot high-status wizards like Malfoy and Dumbledore to wear long hair

Ah, but as I said in my comment to Camilla: Molly's distress over Bill's hair seems to be that of the mother who wants an honest bank accountant son and gets a flamboyant musician. She naggs constantly about how nice Bill would look with short hair, but she never gives any social/economic/class-related arguments.

[soawen.livejournal.com]

First I was going to argue that hair length may have something to do with age and status (married?), but I went off to re-read the scene in GoF and I admit that it does indeed sound more argh!my baby will never have a job at the ministiry now-ish than anything else.

Interesting observations, though. I have pestered my brother who suggested that it might be like in Japan: you can wear a suit or a - dammit, I can never remember the right word! - haori? kimono-thing, but that doesn't account for the Weasley's lack of knowledge. Unless they just pick up the clothes and put it on ;)

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

I admit that there might be a wide range of explanations regarding clothes and hair style through status/social class etc. But, I am covinced that these explanations are fanon. I don't think Rowling tries to imply that the Weasleys think they're lower-class wizards than the Malfoys just because Arthur's got short hair and (movie) Lucius hasn't. I think her goal was to establish Molly as a worried mother who wants her sons to be representative.

My point was not that it's not possible to wear both. Because obviously, the younger generation wears both Muggle and wizard fashion. My point was to, um, point out that traditional wizard fashion is not the same as traditional Muggle fashion and that tradition-oriented wizards would not follow the same style as tradition-oriented Muggles. (Like, Snape going commando and stuff. So not traditional in our society.)

[soawen.livejournal.com]

Agreed on both accounts - I guess it was the gut instinct trying to find some sort of explanation ;)

(Like, Snape going commando and stuff. So not traditional in our society.)

Which is such a shame.

[gryffingirl.livejournal.com]

Very interesting. I'd have to agree with you on the fact that the younger generations just put their robes on over muggle clothes (wether or not there's evidence in canon, that's how I always imagined it.) Also about Snape and the healthy breeze, well we know that he (at least when he was fifteen) didn't wear trousers under his robes, because in OotP when Harry is in Snape's pensieve and is watching the memory where the Marauders flip Snape (or should I say Snivellus?) upside down, his robes fall around his waist to reveal a pair of naked legs and old grey underwear...so no trousers for Snape!
As for older wizards pureblood or not, I think its, like you said, at times a matter of comfort or praticality. But maybe the trousers under the robes is for casual situations and full wizarding attire/robes is more of a formal dress. (i.e. Lucius probably always wears full robes without trousers on underneath.)
Whew! That's my tuppence.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

the younger generations just put their robes on over muggle clothes

I think they do so in PS, when Harry and Ron meet on the train and Hermione comes in their compartment and tells them to change into their robes. And this situation occurs in later books, too. They all get changed in the same compartment, which leads me to the assumption that they don't strip down completely before they put on their robes. Unless Rowling is not telling us something.

his robes fall around his waist to reveal a pair of naked legs and old grey underwear...

Which would contradict the fact that Harry and his friends wear Muggle clothes under their school robes. Of course, fashion might have changed. But I tend to think that this is merely an omission on the author's part.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I saw it - haven't commented yet, obviously, but I will drop in for a lengthy read. Thanks for letting me know in any case.

[rane-ab.livejournal.com]

Hi! Got here through quickquote. Wow, you made some lovely observations. I wasn't going to add anything at first -- it seemed you'd rounded it all up -- but then I started wondering about this.

Old wizards also tend to wear long hair and beards.

I honestly don't remember -- who, apart from Dumbledore has long hair and beard? I know Lucius has long hair in the movie, but I tend to disregard movie!canon, as it often isn't consistent with the books. I can't really remember anyone else. And Dumbledore is way over a hundred years old, a time when long hair was probably, indeed, acceptable. A few centuries ago Muggles wore long wigs, after all. Yet, my Mum's boss refused to hire a man (a lorry driver, for God's sake!) just because he had long hair. A few decades ago, especially, men with long hair were considered as thugs. I don't see why the same thing can't have happened in the wizarding world. In Dumbledore's younger years, long hair was perhaps acceptable, and he is of course a child of his generation. Even if he wouldn't be, mind you, he does seem to be a bit eccentric. If anything, he reminds of the nutty professor types we see in movies. So people wouldn't likely comment on his hairdressing.
Times have likely changed in the wizarding world as they have in the Muggle world, though -- long hair is no longer acceptable, especially not in younger wizards.
The only other person I can remember off the top of my head with long hair is Snape, like you mentioned. It's described as shoulder-length, which isn't exactly long, but still. Then again, Snape isn't exactly known for his hair hygiene. It could just be another sign from JKR that Snape doesn't tend to take care of his physical appearance, apart from his robes. He's got yellowish, uneven teeth, greasy hair and temples, at least, and grey underwear. And, apparently, shoulder-length hair.

But I could be entirely wrong. Is there anyone else with long hair?

And clever remark about Mr Black's trousers, by the way! It does sound like a slip-up.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Oh dear. I wasn't prepared to discuss the point in detail. It was merely a random idea which popped into my head. But all right. Here we go:

I didn't take the movie canon into consideration, so the question whether or not Lucius' got long hair does not signify in this argument. My opinion is based on the conception Rowling's obviously got with regard to the fashion and accessoire style in the wizarding world: she paints a very traditional picture of wizards: long floating robes, pointy hats, writing with quills, riding broomsticks, using candles as light sources, brewing toad and snail essences in cauldrons etc. It's not so much the way she describes single characters, it's the entire atmosphere her writing evokes. Her witches and wizards look like the witches and wizards used to look hundreds of years ago. And although I'm sure that everyone could name examples of short-haired wizards known from books and films, the traditional image of such wizards as Rowling describes them is: long robes, pointy hats, beards. (Take Terry Pratchett, the man who picks up and twists cliches and throws them back into our faces: his wizards are elderly men with long fancy robes and beards. Because this is the classic image of wizards.)

So, although the single characters in Rowling's universe might have short hair (I'm sure Lupin does, and so does my version of Lucius), the meta-wizard, the wizard archetype Rowling uses looks like Albus Dumbledore.

My conclusion now was that since this is the traditional wizard look, the appearance of wizards who obviously are more traditionally inclined (regardless on whether in a Malfoy sort of way or a Percy sort of way, who has very strict codes and values regarding rules and guidelines) would not correspond with the Muggle nerd (or the Muggle banker or the Muggle politician - in Lucius' case) but with the wizard equivalent.

And I do think that she didn't think this through to the end. She created the image of Percy as the archetype of a Head Boy and nerd, but not as the archetype of a wizard, which he should primarily be.

The "pants yes or no" question is more or less a by-product. But one that is always worth a thought *g*

[rane-ab.livejournal.com]

Ah, OK. *ahem* Sorry, I tend to go into detail.

In response to what you're saying, though, about JKR creating a traditional wizarding world: I always got the impression (though an impression is probably all it is) that the traditions at Hogwarts are fairly ancient. It rather reminds me of those old English boarding schools (which I've never seen up close, but anyway…) -- school uniforms, tight regulations, maybe even separate schools for boys and girls, while in the rest of the world, people are wearing jeans and getting weird haircuts and couples kiss in the streets. What I mean is that I don't really get the impression that Hogwarts reflects the state of the rest of the wizarding world; yes, it adopts the classical view of wizards in robes and pointy hats, but that's not the way it is in the rest of the world. (Except, perhaps, in certain old pureblood wizarding families.) Hogwarts feels like it's outdated compared to the Outside World. There's never any mention of wizards wearing hats outside Hogwarts, I think. It's more like a school uniform, both for the students and the staff. And I imagine they'd look pretty stupid in their school uniform while being outside the school, even while applying for, say, a job at the Ministry.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

What I mean is that I don't really get the impression that Hogwarts reflects the state of the rest of the wizarding world; yes, it adopts the classical view of wizards in robes and pointy hats, but that's not the way it is in the rest of the world.

Sorry for the belated answer. I was absent from LJ for weeks.

Anyway, I think that Rowling makes quite a point of stressing how different the lifestyle and fashion of the wizarding world are from those in our world. Regardless whether you pick out the pointy hats, the emerald cloaks or the swishy robes: Wizards look different from Muggles and they are not particularly apt in dressing like Muggles. At the Quidditch World Cup, Harry remarks that the campsite manager - Mr. Roberts (?) - was recognisable as the only Muggle - because all the others were dressed funnily. Wearing ponchos to pin-stiped trousers and stuff.

So, the point is not what exactly they wear (pointy hats or top hats is really rather interchangeable). My point is merely that traditional wizard fashion is different from traditional Muggle fashion. So, logically, a wizard who follows traditions and sticks to the rules should look like a wizard and not like a typical Muggle. Especially at the Ministry. It was the Ministry wizards at the world cup, after all, who had no idea how to dress like Muggles.

[puppy-tenchan.livejournal.com]

I see no inconsistency in the hair here. Albus is the only who, following the books, has long hair. (Lucius' hair is completely movie verse. Jason Isaacs requested long hair.) And honestly, do you believe Molly would dare to openly criticise Albus about his hairstyle?! Snape's long hair is most probably merely a consequence of him not caring to cut it nicely. Would he care about his hair's look, he would cut it short, as it obviously tends to grease.

The question of what they wear under their robes is an interesting one, though. I tend to go with the theory, that not wearing anything under their robes is reserved for official and festive occasions. The school uniforms, maybe the ministry uniforms, dress robes, etc. And it probably is not frowned upon in general, when a wizard choses to not wear anything in his daily life. Which would be most convenient and comfortable, when one only stays in their house, for example.
Pants or anything else under the robes would consequently be every day wear when one is at least somewhat active.

P.S.: I do believe Sirius has or at least had leather pants. It just goes with the Harley loving type of character. I doubt, however, that he wears/wore them when not riding his bike. (Not that I would mind peeling them off seeing him in such attire.)

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

As I elaborated in my comment to rane_ab, my ideas were triggered less by the description of single characters (movie!Lucius' long hair is completely irrelevant) but by the general image Rowling creates with her descriptions of fashion and style of the wizarding world. Obviously, she follows the image of the classic wizard archetype: pointy hat, floating robes, wand, broomstick, cauldron filled with disgusting essences... This view incorporates the image of wizards being old, having long hair and beard. Not every single wizard in history (books, films, myths) might fulfill these requiremets, but the wizard archetype does. My idea was that, since Rowling makes use of this classic image, it would be only consequential if she kept it up as the traditional wizard style. Traditional, old-fashioned wizards don't look and don't act like traditional, old-fashioned Muggles. Rowling spends pages illustrating the differences in (life-) styles. It doesn't play a great role whether her wizards wear their hair long, very long or not long at all; the point is that wizards follow a different fashion code than Muggles and that a wizard nerd (Percy) shouldn't look like a stereotypical Muggle nerd.

The question of what they wear under their robes is an interesting one, though.

I think that this image of the wizard archetype requires that they don't wear anything under those robes. Rowling seems to think so, too, as shown in the Worst Memory chapter. But since there are many switches to and fro, the question about trousers or no trousers and what sort of trousers is one that fandom will hardly be able to solve *shrugs* I prefer them wearing trousers, making the distinctions I listed in my post. (Younger generation vs. older generation)

(Not that I would mind peeling them off seeing him in such attire.)

Heh! Who wouldn't?

[puppy-tenchan.livejournal.com]

I believe our views about the traditional wizard image for HP go afar. I more see the 'warlock/witch' picture here, which includes the well-kept, elegant gentleman or the creepy dark man for the wizard/warlock. Voldemort's current form certainly supports that. This picture does not necessarily include the long hair and the beard. This is more a sign of eccentrism of age.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

I more see the 'warlock/witch' picture here, which includes the well-kept, elegant gentleman or the creepy dark man for the wizard/warlock.

I see. Well, the image my imagination supplies is more the witch and wizard in children books: the wizard with robe and beard and the witch hunched over a cauldron and living in a small hut at the edge of the forest. The more rural version of witches and wizards, you could say.

[melannen.livejournal.com]

I came here by way of quickquotes and wanted to add my two knuts.

I think the idea of the "archetypal wizard" is interesting, but oversimplifies the wizarding world. They may have quills and cauldrons, but they also have indoor plumbing and jellybeans and busses and cameras. The clothing is a similar blend of traditional and modern things. After all, one of the first wizards we see in hp:ps is wearing a top hat, not a pointy one.

As for the specific issues you brought up here, especially the Weasleys, the image I got of Weasley clothing always reminded me of accounts I've read about the spread of American/European culture to the rest of the world, with older people trying bewilderedly to fit in while their children leap beyond. And it makes sense to me that there would be a fad for Muggle things, however poorly understood, as a backlash against the Voldemort War. So looking like a well-groomed Muggle bureaucrat *is* the way to get ahead at the Ministry, at least under Fudge, and Bill's long hair and fang earring is rebelling against that PC sensibility by openly flouting his wizard heritage.

What-do-they-wear-under-their-robes is connected to that; the young PC muggle-loving crowd would wear trousers and pants, as would out-and-proud muggleborns and halfbloods, the older generation and the purebloods nothing, or possibly victorian-style underthings, with lots of layers of underrobes. What really bothered me about the Snape's pants scene was the image of wearing Muggle-style pants but not trousers under his robes. . . but the recent kerfuffle about bullying has got me wondering if that wasn't half what he hated about it, that he came from a class which approved of Muggle trousers, but was too poor to afford to wear jeans *and* a robe like the fashionable kids. . .

[melannen.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I meant to add: I regularly ride a bicycle in a long skirt, cloak, and petticoats, and have no difficulty with it; as long as the skirt's wide enough (say at least a semicircle) it doesn't ride up, and with warm stockings it's not chilly I can't imagine *any* way of riding a broomstick astride that'd be comfortable, so I just write that off to magic. As to a motorbike, I'd probably be a bit leery of getting caught in it, but my experience on a bicycle is that loose pants legs are more likely to get caught than a skirt.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

I can't imagine *any* way of riding a broomstick astride that'd be comfortable, so I just write that off to magic

Heh! I always thought that a broomstick - of all things! - is about the most stupid means of transport imaginable. But apparently Rowling specifies a cushioning charm that is used. (In Quidditch through the Ages - which I never read, but she mentioned it in some interview or other.)

Still, on a bike, I do prefer trousers. And I particularly prefer Sirius to wear trousers, though not necessarily leather...

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

can't imagine *any* way of riding a broomstick astride that'd be comfortable

Cushioning charm, per Quidditch Through the Ages. *g*

Not my thing either, but then I never could stay on a bike, either.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

but oversimplifies the wizarding world.

Of course it oversimplifies the wizarding world. But this is a crucial aspect of the general idea that lies behind my post: Rowling, too, oversimplifies images and characters by using stereotypes or, indeed, archetypes. Her Percy is the stereotypical Muggle Head Boy/bank accountant type, from his pompous way to talk to his glasses. Rowling's talent, in my opinion, lies in the ability to catch a character with a few easy-handed descriptions. We all know whom she means by describing Percy, because we all have encountered this boy either at school or later at some office or other. She even gives him the horn-rimmed glasses to illustrate her point.

That is all very well, but - and this is the point I am trying to make - the general guidelines in the wizarding world are different than in our world. It doesn't really matter whether more wizards wear top hats or pointy hats or whether they wear they hair long only if they're over 40 and married. But: the wizarding world has a fashion code that differs from ours, and consequently, it would make more sense for the bank accountant type in the wizarding world to dress differently from one in the Muggle world.

So looking like a well-groomed Muggle bureaucrat *is* the way to get ahead at the Ministry, at least under Fudge

But particularly under Fudge, who is a more or less outspoken supporter of the "pure-bloods rule" movement (and who wears a pin striped cloak in atrocious colours that I can't be bothered to look up now), looking like a Muggle makes little sense.

Fudge is actually an excellent example: Rowling uses the description of his clothes and his general appearance to illustrate how ridiculous he really is. His clothes make us laugh. (It just occurs to me how important the question of clothes really is: they are always used to underline a character's, well, character.) In the same way, she uses Percy's appearance to illustrate how pompous and rule-obedient he is. It works out excellently; we all can picture Percy easily. My only objection is that, to maintain the inner logic, Percy's nerd outfit should be a wizarding nerd outfit (whatever it might look like) not a Muggle one.

the young PC muggle-loving crowd would wear trousers and pants, as would out-and-proud muggleborns and halfbloods, the older generation and the purebloods nothing, or possibly victorian-style underthings, with lots of layers of underrobes.

I agree on that. The fashion in the wizarding world is subject to changes, and the young generation adopts the Muggle influence.

that he came from a class which approved of Muggle trousers, but was too poor to afford to wear jeans *and* a robe like the fashionable kids. . .

I think that this scene was mostly written this way to illustrate how humiliated he was. In fact, I contribute many aspects that are fervently discussed within the fandom to Rowling's attempt to evoke certain images and elicit certain reactions. Percy's description does make sense as in him Rowling creates exactly the character she wants to; Snape's not wearing any trousers under his robes emphasises the humiliation aspect of the scene. One can argue on whether this is necessary (or correct within the internal logic), but it's certainly very effective.

[melannen.livejournal.com]

But particularly under Fudge, who is a more or less outspoken supporter of the "pure-bloods rule" movement (and who wears a pin striped cloak in atrocious colours that I can't be bothered to look up now), looking like a Muggle makes little sense.

Where do you get that Fudge is a pureblood supremacist? I didn't see that *anywhere*. Yes, he's a whinging little rat who knuckles under to Malfoy, but he was elected after the first War and he comes to Dumbledore for political advice, so I've always assumed he pays at least lip service to the Mugglelover cause.

The ridiculous pinstriped robes worn by Fudge and Arthur are a case in point: Fudge and his party want to appear like they understands Muggles in order to grab the non-pureblood constituency, but they doesn't bother to truly understand the culture they're using, like a white American politican in a kente-pattern tie, or Kennedy saying "Ich bin ein berliner". Whereas Percy is an overachieving nerdboy because he does truly assume the Muggle Accountant persona, assuming that's what the higher-ups want, rather than only paying lip service.

One can argue on whether this is necessary (or correct within the internal logic), but it's certainly very effective.
You're probably right that a lot of this is just sloppy worldbuilding on JKR's part. But half the fun of fandom for me is forcing it all to make sense despite that, and part of what's so endlessly inspiring about the wizarding world is that it usually *does* allow consistent interpretations. (unlike in xf, for example.)

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Sorry for the belated answer. I was absent from LJ for weeks, but I wanted to address one point you mention:

Where do you get that Fudge is a pureblood supremacist? I didn't see that *anywhere*.

Chamber of Secrets. Dumbledore says, when Hagrid is arrested, that Fudge has always paid too much attention to the "so-called purity of blood". And while I am the first one to admit that Dumbledore is not always right in his moral standards and his choices, it is still clear that Rowling uses him - throughout the books - for the clarification and explanation of background information, which she has and the reader needs.

Whereas Percy is an overachieving nerdboy because he does truly assume the Muggle Accountant persona, assuming that's what the higher-ups want, rather than only paying lip service.

Ah, but, the Ministry members - of all people - follow the traditional wizard fashion and have no idea what Muggles really look like. That much is obvious from the way they dress at the Quidditch World Cup, where Harry points out that the campsite manager is the only real Muggle around. The Ministry wizards wear ponchos and kilts. Rowling makes a point throughout the books to emphasise the differences between Muggle and wizard fashion: from the weird people in emerald green and purple cloaks appearing in the streets in PS to, indeed, the fact that the Ministry wizards, even those who are occasionally in touch with the Muggle society, have no idea what to wear.

Mr. Crouch is an exception at the World Cup, but this is due to the fact that he follows rules. The rule is to dress up like a Muggle, and he fulfils it flawlessly. While the normal wizards don't.

But half the fun of fandom for me is forcing it all to make sense despite that, and part of what's so endlessly inspiring about the wizarding world is that it usually *does* allow consistent interpretations.

However, Rowling leaves many plotholes which are clearly recognisable as plotholes. Or maybe not so much plotholes as smallish plot inconsistencies. It doesn't reduce my pleaure when reading the books, but it annoys me sometimes when I try to fit it into a larger context, for example when writing fic.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

to go off on a tangent...

but the recent kerfuffle about bullying has got me wondering if that wasn't half what he hated about it, that he came from a class which approved of Muggle trousers, but was too poor to afford to wear jeans *and* a robe like the fashionable kids. . .

So do you think his allying himself with the purebloods, regardless of his monetary status, was a way of striking back - "I may be poor, but at least I'm not a Mudblood" - or of gaining the respect his family maybe lost via financial reverses? He comes to reject Muggle-influenced styles because he can't afford them? A very punk attitude...

So Snape hates James and Sirius because they're rich, good-looking and pureblooded (which, except for the last, he is not), and those attributes allow them to get away with the bullying (which he would not, were he the one doing it), which makes him hate them more.

I think one of the reasons Sirius hates Snape so much has to do with the fact that Snape is everything Sirius's mother probably wanted him to be - a good little pureblood Slytherin boy. I don't think it's the only reason, but I think it contributed.

[cyanei.livejournal.com]

I think the traditional wizarding outfit would generally be robes over undies, except for in certain circumstances in which trousers would be preferable, such as fighting or riding brooms. Think back to when women always wore dresses; when riding horses, trousers or breeches were generally worn, if only to save the time, effort, and money needed to have a separate side saddle, as well as your average man's saddle. I'd think the same principal would apply to men wearing robes, especially when it got cold! ^^;

As for Bill's hair- I'd assume that long hair is not an acceptable, or even usual, part of traditional wizarding culture. It seems to me that the only men in the books who have long hair are either old fogeys with no apparent interest in what is acceptable or fashionable (Dumbledore), middle-aged guys no one would want to bother messing with anyway (Moody, Snape), or rich snobs who think it makes them look aristocratic (Lucius). So for Bill, having long hair would be something of a minor rebellion, as most of the men in his father's generation seem to keep their hair short.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Sorry for the belated answer. I wasn't ignoring you but was absent from LJ.

My point was not so much establishing whether and when wizards wear their hair long. But it is obvious from the entire context in the books that Rowling creates a wizard world the style and fashion of which differ strongly from those of the Muggle world - the weird looking people in green and purple cloaks in PS, the fashion in Diagon Alley, the robes and the fact that wizards have no idea how to dress like Muggles (Quidditch World Cup; Harry points out that the campsite manager is the only Muggle around, because he is the only one who is dressed like one) are clear indicators for this.

So, I think that seeing as the typical wizard looks different from the typical Muggle, there should also be a difference between a typical wizard nerd like Percy and a typical Muggle nerd.

[(Anonymous)]

Just a general comments:
~On school robes: I read an interview with Rowling a couple of years back saying that Hogwarts students wear their normal clothes with robes over them. Robes in education are an equalizer, you can't see all of what people are wearing under them thus it's harder to distinguish from what social class the wearer of the robes is from.

~On long hair:
~~Bill: I have always seen Bill as a free-spirit. Long or longish hair might not be the most practical considering what he does for a living, but this is clearly who he is and nothing is going to change that. Bill is also a young man who's father and most of his siblings aren't likely to think less of him if he has an earring and long hair. Molly is more conservative when it comes to dress and I think that is one of the ways Percy takes after her.

~~Lucius: Harry isn't the most observant person (this is the boy who was seen by the Malfoys while waiting for the train in Book V but failed to see them [see Draco's comments during his visit to Harry's compartment once they are their way].)and since we get very little POV outside of Harry's, Lucius could have long hair but it is never mentioned because Harry isn't the type of person to admire the hair of anyone named Malfoy.

~~Long hair is very time-consuming and expensive. If that is the norm for wizards, I don't see Arthur Weasley having either of those two commodities as he has children to put through school and is always at work trying to earn more money. Molly might cut his hair to save money. Arthur Weasley isn't your typical wizard either; his interest in Muggles makes him stand out and not always in a good way.

Harry has yet to see a normal, middle-class wizarding household, as he is either at The Burrow or #12.

[madamemim.livejournal.com]

Maybe this answers a few of the most pressing questions:

http://krisjen.narod.ru/images/hp/hp15.jpg
Takes forever to load, so don´t be alarmed when it doesn´t appear straight away.

Gacked from shezan.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Thanks a lot. I assume it offers answers to the good old underwear questions? I will check it out in a minute...