GoF stuff

[donnaimmaculata]

Listening to GoF during the past few days, I realised that it is probably the HP novel that annoys me most. (I kinda liked OotP, because the form corresponded with the plot quite perfectly: the loose endings, the illogical actions, the annoying behaviour of the characters serve to emphasise the stagnation and frustration the characters experienced. In a way, Rowling made most readers feel quite as frustrated as the characters do, and while I don't think she did it on purpose, it worked quite well for me. Plus, I very much appreciate that she didn't have the characters forget their petty old grudges (yes, I'm looking at you, Snape) and stand united against their mutual enemy. But I digress.)

So, there are quite a few things that annoy me about GoF (even if I ignore the completely preposterous Triwizard Tournament frame story). But before I come to them, here's a random theory:

In book six or seven, Ron will be put under the Imperius Curse.

Ron will be put under the Imperius Curse because of the spiders: In Moody's class, Moody makes the spider tap-dance to illustrate the Imperius Curse. In PoA-the-movie, Ron wakes up from a nightmare in which spiders wanted to make him tap-dance. Rowling said in the DVD extras that Cuarón unknowingly foreshadowed many events from the upcoming books. - Namely, Ron's being put under the Imperius Curse. (<-My elaboration, not Rowling's.) (This would also neatly encompass the theory that Ron will turn traitor. He will, but not because he wants to.) Farfetched? Possibly. But fun.

• Why do Bill and Charlie have to go to bed when Ginny is tired? Arthur sends them all to bed when, after the Quidditch game, Ginny falls asleep over her cocoa. Now, Bill is at least 10 years older than she is, and from all that we know about him, he seems like the sort of guy who would go out and party all night. Just a minor detail, but one that made me roll my eyes.



• Why are the Veela mascots? That doesn't sound very... respectful. Certainly not as though they were considers equals of the wizards. Arthur (I think) refers to them as "creatures". Hm. If they are "creatures" rather than "humans", does this affect Fleur in any way?



• One of the Top Five of Annoying Issues from all five novels and one that makes me froth at the mouth each time I reread it: Why are the Heads of Beauxbatons and Durmstrang not allowed to know about the dragons? Dumbledore knows. His staff know. But Madame Maxime and Karkaroff are to be kept in ignorance, because - as Charlie says - "The champions aren't supposed to know what's coming - she's bound to tell her students, isn't she?" I mean, WTF? Why is she bound to tell her students (which she does to get the plot rolling), while Dumbledore, Hagrid and Moody are considered trustworthy? I am so not surprised that Maxime and Karkaroff were royally pissed off when Harry was accepted as the fourth champion. They way they were treated throughout the whole event, they could probably count themselves lucky they weren't put into custody as to not interfere with the smooth procedure of the Tournament. (Awarding Harry full points for "moral fibre", I ask you!)



• Re: the Floo network. Sirius is able to speak to Harry through the common room fire, using the fireplace in some wizarding household or other. It follows logically that all wizarding parents should be able to speak to their children directly through the common room fireplaces. Why bother with owl post, then? Oh dear. Logic. (Not to mention that the fireplaces could be used for travelling to and from Hogwarts, but I'm willing to assume that there are different forms of terminals, those which are used for transport and communication and those which work only as communication channels.)

I think there are more points, but I didn't write them down while listening. I might be back with more eye-rolling and WTF-ing as the re-listening progresses.

And something else that occurred to me: After Moody transfigured Draco into a ferret, nothing that McGonagall says indicates that this is actually forbidden:

"Moody, we never use Transfiguration as a punishment!" said Professor McGonagall weakly. "Surely Professor Dumbledore told you that?"
"He might've mentioned it, yeah," said Moody [...]
"We give detentions, Moody! Or speak to the offender's Head of house!"

It sounds to me as though this was Dumbledore's choice not to transfigure students and not a legal regulation of any kind.

Comments

[fleshdress.livejournal.com]

I have issues with Polyjuice!Moody. So, right, Crouch Jr. keep him in trunk so he can harvest hairs for the potion, so why doesn't he change into ill and underweight Moody? Does the potion pick the optimum appearance for the drinker, let them choose or something? Why does the potion not change Crouch Jr. to look like Moody as he was at the time the hair was plucked?

I suppose this extends into hypothetical questions like: if you drank Polyjuice containing the hair of a dead person what you would come out looking like? The living person or a pile of bones and stuff? If the latter, couldn't we use it to see if Sirius is really dead or not?
And yes, everything does come back to Sirius. *g*

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Yes, the Polyjuice thing irritates me as well. I was thinking in exactly opposite terms: Why does Crouch change into leg and eyeless Moody? Because if the potions affects the DNA (in some weird magical way), Crouch should change into physically unharmed Moody. I've never carried the thought further, but you're so right, if the potion makes you assume the present appearance of the person whose hair you use, Crouch should look ill and underweight.

If the person's dead, maybe you die as well? I don't think we will ever learn. Rowling will have to think of some other way to let us know what happened to Sirius (and how he can be brought back). I really do hope she realises that, because his death, as it is, is highly unsatisfying.

[rosina-alcona.livejournal.com]

Why do Bill and Charlie have to go to bed when Ginny is tired?

My mum still tries to take my hand when I cross a road with her. I am 29 years old. *g*

Possibly Arthur is so used to treating the 'kids' as a collective lump of humanity rather than individuals that it's just habit to send them all to bed at the same time?

You are sending spirals of fear into my stomach with your theory about Ron. It is going to make me cry my eyes out if that happens, and ron-hating communities will sprout like fungus in a damp toilet - waaahahahahaa! Of course, if they only use the Imperious curse to make him tap-dance, I'll survive. But the traitor thing...oh help!

I always thought the 'mascots' thing was the same as having cheerleaders? Or alternatively, something/someone the country is proud of that they want other countries to see. The Veelas freak me out, by the way - do you think Fleur can do that bird-thing with her face???

Floo Network: another point is that Diggory was able to take a piece of toast from Molly when he spoke through their fireplace. In that case, couldn't they just have a 'postman' deliver the mail directly to the common room? I can imagine congestion issues with lots of parents jostling to speak to their children otherwise! I also don't understand how Umbridge managed to get her arm into the fireplace to swipe at Sirius's head?

Polyjuice: how did Barty Crouch manage to act exactly like Moody for a whole term? That has always amazed me.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

My mum still tries to take my hand when I cross a road with her. I am 29 years old. *g*

She only has your best interest at heart, you know!

collective lump of humanity LOL!

Ah, don't worry about the Ron prediction. I'm sure he will be fine. And we all know his love for Harry is deep and true.

I thought of cheerleaders first, too, but Arthur's "creatures" comment put me off. It doesn't sound as though "creatures" were on the same level with wizards. And I wonder whether Fleur can do the weird bird thing with her face, too. There is a fic by Seeker out there where Lucius' Veela heritage shows in exactly that way, with the bird feature becoming more pronounced, but I never read anything like that in connection with Fleur. Then again, I don't read much Fleur, so that might be the reason.

I thought that maybe the fireplaces work either for transport and communication or for communication only, in which case parents would be able to speak to the children, but not interact with them. I don't think the fireplaces would become clogged, though - the fireplace would work rather like a phone booth, I imagine: like in the old times, before mobile communication was introduced. The thing with Umbridge's arm implies that it is possible to physically interact through the Hogwarts Floo network. But maybe it works only within the internal network?

The thing with Barty Crouch acting like Moody without being found out by Moody's old friend Dumbledore is ridiculous; I am willing to ignore it, because it is the aspect that carries the plot, stupid though it is.

Hm, maby Moody and Barty Jr. used to be close friends? Like, really close? Is there fiction out there exploring this pairing? There should be.

[dementedsiren.livejournal.com]

thought of cheerleaders first, too, but Arthur's "creatures" comment put me off. It doesn't sound as though "creatures" were on the same level with wizards

To me, that only emphasises the "reverse bigotry" of the wizarding world. I think it was on your LJ a week or so ago where we were talking about how wizard's consider humans to be like little children and are very condescending towards them... Well, here Arthur makes these beings out to be something less than Wizard/human... paralleling Lucius' attitude towards Muggles, and the Wizarding attitude towards muggles in a more general way. I've always seen it as a way to show that even the 'good guys' have issues.

Then again, maybe JKR wasn't trying for that at all, maybe she just considers non-humans to be creatures in context of her world.

The Floo network, if I remember correctly, was seen as somewhat unstable and unreliable (with Apparating being more dangerous, and brooms being less dangerous but also less convenient). Also, you can only use it for one destination at a time, making it a very crowded way to communicate. I've also always thought that, with Hogwart's at least, things were warded in a way that made it difficult to get through... you don't see it happening often, and if you're using Sirius firecalling Harry as an example, well - A. Sirius was already a fugitive and thus could resort to less than perfect means, and B. Dumbledore may have allowed him special access.

The thing with Barty Crouch acting like Moody without being found out by Moody's old friend Dumbledore is ridiculous

That's because Dumbledore is Teh EVIL, of course. I'm sure he was in on the whole thing. Testing moral fiber my arse. Pfft.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

I always assumed that Moody and Crouch weren't a million miles apart as far as personalities go.
I mean, they're both zealots, they both hate escaped death eaters, they're both willing to do almost anything to ensure they attain their goals, including becoming morally dubious, at best.

[inathunderstorm.livejournal.com]

*waves*

I found you from a daily snitch community post :)

You know what always drives me crazy with GoF? Why, why, WHY did Crouch not just make a portkey and then deliver Harry to Voldemort that way? I think the whole scheme about "I'll pretend to be a teacher, and then he'll have to win the Triwizard tournament, so I'll help him do that, so he can touch this thing I've made into a portkey!"

It just seems so vaguely Cobra-Commander-ish :) I think were I a senior Death Eater, I might have staged a coup at this point.

Just sharing :)

[dementedsiren.livejournal.com]

Cobra-Commander hehehe - And the snake analogy fits so well, too!

Sorry, just had to comment on that.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Hello! *waves back*

I know. The entire frame story is so incredibly farfetched - up to and including the fact that Dumbledore didn't realise that he was dealing with an imposter and not with one of his oldest friends.

Maybe Crouch wanted to make the entire scheme as difficult as possible so that Voldemort would be impressed? No, I didn't think so, either.

[chaosdancer.livejournal.com]

Yeah...that along with my old favorite - why didn't the eagles just fly Sam and Frodo to Mt. Doom in the first place? Because somewhere Glinda the Good Witch didn't think they appreciated their homes enough and had to send them the long way 'round?

Hrumph. Not that this has anything to do with Harry Potter, just sayin'.

here via daily snitch...

[biascut.livejournal.com]

Why are the Veela mascots? That doesn't sound very... respectful. Certainly not as though they were considers equals of the wizards. Arthur (I think) refers to them as "creatures". Hm. If they are "creatures" rather than "humans", does this affect Fleur in any way?

I think this is going to be part of the whole "wizard racism" theme which is at the centre of the books. The wizards have all these regulations about the "non-human magical creatures", lots of prejudices and some very patronising attitudes which were enshrined in the "Magical Creatures" fountain with the adoring centaur, house elf and goblin. And that was shattered at the end of the Order of the Phoenix. Sirius died because of the way the household treated the house elf. The giants have gone to Voldemort's side. The wizards need to get over their attitudes to "magical" creatures if they want to stand a chance against Voldemort.

So I think JKR will explore the very dodgy territory of having races of clearly intelligent creatures which are classed as "non-human" and denied full rights as citizens. What will be intriguing is seeing whether she steps in the even dodgier territory of having clearly intelligent creatures who are classed as "non-human", and denied full rights, but with which the wizarding world seems to interbreed anyway! I mean, really wizards, you can't have it both ways: either they're a different species or they're not, but you can't really go around claiming they're a totally different species and have no legal rights, but having people have sex with them anyway! Does awful things to your notions of consent.

I can't see how JKR could explore that in too much detail in a series which is still pitched at young adult/children's market, but it's definitely there.

Re: here via daily snitch...

[teaberry-leaves.livejournal.com]

[also via d_s]
You have some good points...
On a completely different note re: wizards interbreeding with other species, I think JKR's genetics may be a bit wonky here. Generally when two different species interbreed they produce infertile young (a la the mule or liger, or those horse/zebra crossbreeds). This is not true for all inter-species crosses, but it is true for many, and the ones that do work seem to be v. closely related (two species of finches from the same area). Also: does JKR ever mention if magical creatures like veela can breed with muggles? Or is it only wizards?

Re: here via daily snitch...

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

So I think JKR will explore the very dodgy territory of having races of clearly intelligent creatures which are classed as "non-human" and denied full rights as citizens.

I wonder whether the lectures on goblin rebellions in Binns' class are meant to foreshadow a further exploration of this subject. Binns' classes must have a point - besides serving as illustriation of a truly boring teacher.

and denied full rights, but with which the wizarding world seems to interbreed anyway!

See, the reason why I was wondering about the Veelas is that we don't see any discrimination towards Fleur. In all the other cases when half-breeds are introduced, the discrimination follows straightaway (Remus, Hagrid). Ron, who is a good indicator of who is discriminated and who's not in the wizarding world, doesn't seem to have any problems with Fleur's half-blood status. (I know he fancies her; but he was shocked about the revelation that Hagrid's a half-giant, and Hagrid is his friend.) Therefore, I vaguely assumed that Veela might be considered as not inferior to wizards. But the "creatures" thing put me right off.

but you can't really go around claiming they're a totally different species and have no legal rights, but having people have sex with them anyway! Does awful things to your notions of consent.

You know, I've never considered it in the context of consent, but you're right. Well, giants probably don't have much of a problem there, seeing as they're rather resistant to magical attacks and physically strong. Veela might have a problem if they're considered "creatures". I don't really see wizards interbreeding with goblins or leprechauns, because - how? And why? But werewolves (yes, it all comes back to Remus in the end) and other mostly-humans are definitely in danger of getting abused.

I don't think Rowling will be able to explore this particular aspect, but it might be implied within the entire discrimination-of-magical-creatures theme that is bound to shift into the focus of interest in the next two books.

[japonicastar.livejournal.com]

If I remember correctly I'm sure that Sirius said he knows how to get past the defences of the Floo network and Hogwarts. I don't think that it is common knowledge that you could or can Floo the Gryffindor common room; Sirius, James and the other two seemed to know the castle hugely well and if someone was able to get past the barriers of the Floo connection, then it would be MWPP.

Why are the Veela mascots?

Probably to try to distract the opposition as much as possible. They wanted to win and if cheating was the way to do it, so be it!

I like your Ron theory. *Snorts* It's better than the whole shipping debate movie theories, in my opinion!

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Yes, and they damn sure work well as a distraction. But I didn't like the fact that they were referred to as "creatures". It makes them sound sub-human, and I'm not sure this was wholly intended.

Glad you like the Ron theory. I must admit I don't care much for any shipping theories, but I am a big fan of coming up with weird and farfetched concepts that might or might not come true in future books.

[mellafe.livejournal.com]

Your theory about foreshadowing has to be the BESTEST I've read ever, because it's not plane to see, it takes work to figure it out and therefore IT COULD HAPPEN!! I love it even though I don't want it to happen :D

I can't say the other stuff irks me, hee, but yeah :D

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Heh! Glad you like it!

Coming up with cocked-up schemes for what might happen in later novels is excellent fun. I will miss it after book 7.

The other stuff doesn't irk me enough to make me stop enjoying the books. It's more an eye-rolling reaction it elicits. (Apart from the discrimination of Maxime and Karkaroff. That, I don't like.)

[amberdiceless.livejournal.com]

[Here via The Daily Snitch (http://www.livejournal.com/community/daily_snitch/) or The Quick Quote (http://www.livejournal.com/community/quickquote/)]

Re. the Floo thing: Perhaps upkeep on an owl is cheaper than Floo powder?

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Somehow, I think it's because owls are cuter. It's nice to imagine owls soaring above the Great Hall every morning.

[timba.livejournal.com]

Hi!

I found you from a link off of circe_tigana's LJ.

Just a note to say that I think you post intersting things, and I am friending you.

:-D

[timba.livejournal.com]

and dang it all, wrong LJ code.

I am here via daily_snitch

[psychic-serpent.livejournal.com]

It sounds to me as though this was Dumbledore's choice not to transfigure students and not a legal regulation of any kind.

Actually, the passage you quoted makes it sound like she expected that Dumbledore had told Moody the rules, not his personal whims. "We give detentions," sounds like, "this is what the rules say," not just, "this is what Dumbledore wants."

But Polyjuice has always been a slightly annoying plot-device to me. I think that to be logical the person taking the potion should appear as the person did at the time that the hair was removed, so if the ersatz Moody took a lot of hair from Moody early in the first term, he should continue to appear as Moody did at that time. (Which means that his hair shouldn't appear to grow at all, which is another bit of weirdness.) This means that if you take hair from someone BEFORE they die you should still appear as they did when the hair was cut, regardless of whether they subsequently expired.

The problem with this version is, of course, that if you can transform into the person whose hair you're using regardless of whether they're alive you shouldn't need to keep them alive, as Crouch kept Moody alive in the trunk. (Otherwise why didn't he kill him?)

Why do Bill and Charlie have to go to bed when Ginny is tired?

Because JKR doesn't understand the dynamics of a large family. She is trying to write a large family, born over a number of years, but she can't comprehend that a father wouldn't treat a daughter in her early teens the same as he would treat a son who's almost thirty. (For that matter, JKR hasn't even figured out when Charlie and Bill were born yet; she is currently laboring under the delusion that Charlie is three years older than Percy, which is patently impossible according to the books.) She may love the Weasleys but there are a lot of times when she reveals that she simply does not understand how a big family operates.

Why are the Veela mascots?

While this sounds rather bad, I don't think it's any worse than the leprechauns being mascots. What about them? The theory is supposed to be that they are magical creatures from the country in question. (I wrote about a European cup that had Romania competing and the magical creatures serving as their mascots were Vampires.) It might be a matter of the veela and leprechauns throwing up their hands and saying, "Eh. It's a living." We get people to demean themselves by dressing up in silly, hot suits to be team mascots. It's never really dignified, is it?

I doubt that the common room fires can be used for transportation (or else the point of house passwords would be nonexistent). You'd think they COULD be used for conversations between students in different houses, though, in addition to kids talking to their relatives, heads-of-houses making announcements to their charges, etc. She really hasn't gone to the mat in thinking about the full extent of the usefulness of this device; instead she's only using it when it's useful to Harry, once again. We don't need to see everyone else using it, of course, but hearing about it once, obliquely, wouldn't have been a bad idea.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Awarding Harry full points for "moral fibre", I ask you!

Ooh, I always hated that bit. Like everyone else by implication, lacked moral fibre and would have just let their friends/family die.

...after the Quidditch game, Ginny falls asleep over her cocoa.

Contrasts a bit with OotP!Super!Seeker!Ginny...

Ron will be put under the Imperius Curse because of the spiders

You'll like this essay then. (http://elkins.theennead.com/hp/archives/000128.html#top)

It sounds to me as though this was Dumbledore's choice not to transfigure students and not a legal regulation of any kind.

I assume Dumbledore's not that opposed to it, since no disciplinary action or even warnings to Moody are ever mentioned.
Which adds to my impression Albus is less liberal than appearances suggest, and actually only cares about injustices perpetrated upon people he likes/needs.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

I assume Dumbledore's not that opposed to it, since no disciplinary action or even warnings to Moody are ever mentioned.

OK, the way I read this passage is the following: in general, transfiguring students (or children) is considered a legitimate punishment. But at Hogwarts, it is frowned upon. Dumbledore does not like it and tells his staff to refrain from it, but he has no legal foundation to back him up. Hence, no disciplinary measures against Moody.

Contrasts a bit with OotP!Super!Seeker!Ginny...

I must admit I'm one of the few people who has no problems with the development of Ginny's character in OotP. I don't think it's so very much off, but her characterisatio deserves a longer elaboration than I am now in the position to give. As to this particular scene: Ginny fell asleep after having got up at 2am (?) in the morning and been awake until late at night. Her tiredness is not suprising for a 13-year-old girl. Plus, while they climb up the hill to get to the Portkey, it is Hermione and not Ginny who is the last one on top, panting and clutching her side. That does indicate that Ginny is made of stronger stuff than it would appear.

I like Ginny *shrugs*

[madamemim.livejournal.com]

Very interesting points - thank you very much!

I have no difficulty with Polyjuice, though.
Not if you see it as a magical tool - the trouble starts when you think about it in Muggle terms, change of DNA or some such thing, when it´s not about biology at all.
What Polyjuice does, IMO, is cast a glamour over you so that you´ll appear to everybody else as the person you choose to be, AND look the way people expect that person to look.
Hence you get a Moody who is eyeless and legless but otherwise in good health, no matter what the real Moody looks like at the moment.