(no subject)

[donnaimmaculata]

I don't like epithets, as I'm sure I already mentioned a couple of times. But yesterday I came across one that made me laugh (and hit the back button, too, but laugh first of all): "his godfather's best friend". Apart from the fact that it was Harry's father and not Remus who was his godfather's best friend - how much more complicated can you get? His head of house's barmy superior? The red-haired headboy's younger brother? His aunt's meaty husband's dog-breeding sister?

I understand that one can use any of those epithets when actually talking about the interactions between the people mentioned in them, but not if they are used because the author wants to avoid using the name. Have no fear of names! Names aren't evil.

Comments

[fluffyllama.livejournal.com]

There are some writers I like otherwise who go overboard on these. One doesn't use a beta and I'm itching to offer, especially since she uses the same two epithets *all* the time. Ah well.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

The problem with epithets is that people have very different views on them. Some hate references to hair colour (me, for example), others hate repeating the names too often. Personally, I am guilty of overusing "the other man". It has begun to grate on my nerves whenever I reread any of my older fics. In future, I will make use of names and pronouns alone, I swear!

I'm sure she'd be very flattered if you offered her your beta services ;-)

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Ah, the hair colour thing. I see.

Ooh, Bill/Kingsley smut! I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to it. Such yummy pairing. Go on, write it. Shoo!

[atalantapendrag.livejournal.com]

"The other man" grates if overused. "The other" makes me want to claw my eyes out.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

"The other man" has been used by so many authors (I'm no exception) that the phrase has begun to stand out. It is impossible now for me to ignore it and this is when it seriously disrupts the flow of the story.

[idlerat.livejournal.com]

"The other man" (cf younger/older/taller/more magically endowed man) and hair color are the biggest offenders. Blech. For some reason this seems to me like a close relative of using intransitive verbs transitively-- like someone feels they're reaching for Good Writing by minimizing pronouns.

'Good morning!' the redhead greeted.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

The other man" (cf younger/older/taller/more magically endowed man) and hair color are the biggest offenders.

They are indeed. Using epiteths makes sense sometimes if it is done to stress interrelations or interactions between the characters, but it must stand in a context.

It's also similar to avoiding using "said" and replacing it with other verbs, as demonstrated in gmth's latest entry.

[cherusha.livejournal.com]

They annoy me too from time to time but by far, Harry gets the worst of these. The-Boy-Who-Lived, The-Boy-Who-Turned-Sex-God, The-Boy-Who-Loved-To-Fly, The-Boy-Who-Was-Beaten-To-Death-Under-A-Ton-Of-Metaphors; the list goes on.

But nothing can distract me from a story more like the phrase "the other man" if overly used. I saw this, and variations of this phrase, often in X-files fic (Thank god it hasn't spread to HP yet): the other man, the hazel-eyed man, the taller man, the older man, the trench-suited man, the chestnut-haired man --Gah! It's okay to use his name once in a while.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, "The-Boy-Who" must be the most overused phrase in fanfiction.

The problem with all those phrases we use to avoid mentioning the names over and over again that they become unbearable when one reads them too often. I have used "the other man" (or just "the man") in several instances, and every time I reread the fics, the phrase jumps at me and makes me cringe, because I have become so, so very conscious of it. Like with everything, it's a matter of personal preferences; some people complain that the use of personal pronouns in slash makes it difficult to follow (who is doing what to whom?), others hate the use of "his lover" with a passion.

Referring to the characters by their hair colour or profession ("the cursebreaker") make me cringe, too.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Hate epithets. Nothing puts me off a story like 'the other man', or 'the other girl'. I know it's difficult controlling the pronouns, but really... they have *names*.

Swatkat

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

I can live with "the other man" (*cough* have used it myself far too often *cough*), but anything that incorporates a lengthy description of the person (hair, profession, species...) makes me shudder and hit the back button straightaway. The example I mentioned in the post is particularly amusing; I can imagine the author trying to come up with something very original and interesting.

[izhilzha.livejournal.com]

A bit OT-- I think I am in love with your icon.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Thank you. It's lovely, isn't it? theothernight is the creator, I'm merely benefiting from her skills *shows off second Wonka icon*

[florahart]

There is something fairly wonderful about using an icon made by someone named "the other (something)" in a rant on people using phrases such as "the other man."

I'm just sayin'.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

It's all part of the elaborate meta critique stuff *nods*

[frek.livejournal.com]

ha.

I know i'm guilty of using "the other man". I try not to use it much, but sometimes I do get carried away. Thank god for betas.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

I am guilty of using "the other man", too. In fact, I have gone through several stages as far as epithets are concerned: When I first began writing fics, I would occasionally use "his lover". Then I started using "the other man". Now I try to stick with names and pronouns.

[nadai.livejournal.com]

I don't mind epithets that the viewpoint character might use. E.g., if Harry thinks about Ron and Hermione as 'his friends' or about Dumbledore as 'the Headmaster', that seems fine. But hair color or eye color or the like are right out. It's particularly annoying in smut - you have some character in the throes of orgasm thinking about his lover as 'the red-haired man'. Gaaaaaah.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's what I tried to express by saying "interactions between people". Epithets can be used to show how the characters relate to each other. Saying "Harry saw his godfather die" is perfectly legitimate, because Harry thinks of Sirius as "his godfather", i.e. as someone who is close to him. That's the whole point, really. Epithets can be used to emphasise the way characters feel about each other. Saying "Harry saw his godfather die" is more personal than saying "Harry saw Sirius die". "Harry saw Cedric die" is more personal than saying "Harry saw the Hufflepuff die". I'm not saying that epithets should not be used under any circumstances, but if they are used, they must fulfil a function within the context.

The example I quoted in the post ("his godfather's best friend") made me laugh because it appeared out of nowhere, as Sirius wasn't even mentioned in the fic.

And references to hair colour put me right off, too.

[trytryagain.livejournal.com]

Names are so unloved, but there is a place for epithets (used sparingly, of course) They just have to work in context ie. you might call a character by their hair color shortly before (or after) someone grabs it, pulls it, threads their fingers through it, etc. If it makes sense it usually won't bother me. The only 'The Boy Who' that don't (always) get to me come from Draco simply because I can imagine him being that childish and snotty about it.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

They just have to work in context

Absolutely. Epithets can serve a function if they are used to elaborate how the characters think/feel about each other. Harry can refer to Sirius as "his godfather" to indicate that he considers Sirius as his family or to Dumbledore as "the headmaster" to indicate that Dumbledore is an authority figure. When writing from Snape's PoV, it is legitimate to use "werewolf", because it is very likely that this is how Snape thinks about Remus, but when writing from Harry's PoV (which is what Rowling does), "werewolf" is quite out of place.

The example I used, "his godfather's best friend", was used absolutely out of context and merely with the purpose of avoiding the name, and hence read very awkward.

[furiosity.livejournal.com]

I hate epithets, especially ones referring to hair colour and/or profession. However, my beta told me after looking at a smut scene that I overused names and pronouns. So I went with "the other man" in a few places, and more pronouns in a few others, though the beta hasn't seen the revised version. I've also used nationality a few times (i.e. the Italian boy) but never in a sexual context.

What gets me is -- how much is too much? Apparently, names and personal pronouns can be overused (I trust my beta on this), but what else can be done, aside from using seemingly conscious body parts ([adjective] fingers did ________ and _______, hands gripped his [body part])...?

[Here from the Snitch or the QQ, I don't remember]

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

"The red-haired cursebreaker trailed his tongue down the greasy-haired Potions master's chest", eh?

I have also used "the other man" in several instances. The problem is that people have different views on what to use and you can never please everybody equally. - Some feel that, in slash, personal pronouns are confusing, because it's hard to follow which of the two "he's" is doing what. I think that more often than not this is obvious from the context: "Sirius and Remus were kissing. Sirius trailed his tongue down his chest" very much implies that the chest in question belongs to Remus.

I think epithets can be used if they are meant to emphasise a character's traits or the way characters think/feel about each other. Using "the Italian boy" is perfectly OK if the fact that he's Italian is relevant in that context. It's only the out-of-the-blue descriptions that are absurd.

Here via DS

[auctasinistra.livejournal.com]

What gets me is -- how much is too much?

It's too much when others notice it. I know that's not helpful. It's the truth. My own two cents as far as using a person's profession rather than his name is that it can be appropriate and indeed almost unnoticeable if you use it in a suitable context -- e.g., when Harry and Snape are fucking, "the potions professor" is a tad out of context. When he's teaching or buying supplies or grading homework, the phrase is usually fairly seamless. YMMV of course.
Beyond that, I'm in total agreement that epithets are to be used sparingly.

[dramaphile.livejournal.com]

I always get in such a bind when writing fic because I despise using epithets, and yet it gets a bit old with "Harry this" and "Draco that." I usually intersperse a few epithets in there just to mix it up, but I make them situational instead of based on physical characteristics. Like, if Draco is tied up, I'd refer to him as "the bound boy" instead of "the blond" or "the slytherin" or "the sarcastic prince of Malfoy manor."
The whole names thing bugs me sometimes in fic that I read because people will alternate between, say, "Draco" and "Malfoy" when the character whose POV the story is in (even if it's third person, there's always a focus!) clearly ould only use one or the other. So, if it's a story in which Harry gets in a fight with Draco, he should be referred to as "Malfoy" unless Harry somehow comes to the magical conclusion that he's actually familiar enough to call Draco. Same goes for Severus and Snape or Professor Snape. If Hermione's shagging Snape, but the story's about Harry finding out, then he should be Snape, because Harry would never call him Severus (unless they became friends or colleagues or something). Just a pet peeve...

The worst though, is when you have two characters of the same age and one is referred to as "the smaller boy" completely at random with no previous references to size. Harry/Draco fics do this a lot because there's no precedent as to who's actually the bigger of the two (or if they're the same size). Half the time, it's poor, undernourished Harry, and the other half, it's pale, girly Draco who's the little one in the relationship. I always do a double take and get lost whenever I see reference to size because I can't ever figure out just who they're referring to.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

yet it gets a bit old with "Harry this" and "Draco that

Personally, I am not bothered by the repetition of names; it's like the usage of "said" - the eyes slide over it and the brain registers who is spoken of on a subconcious level. However, as you say, situational use of epithets is acceptable, and sometimes it even serves to emphasise the way the characters relate to each other. But the point is it's got to stand in a context. I absolutely agree with all that you say about using first names vs last names; we know that Harry thinks of Draco as "Malfoy". IIRC, canon!Sirius refers to Draco as "Malfoy's son" at some point. A pet peeve of mine is the use of "werewolf". Harry never refers to Remus as "the werewolf" in canon, nor is it likely that Sirius or Remus himself do. So if I read a fic which is written from one of these characters' PoV and I come across the phrase "the werewolf kissed him passionately", I click the back button straightaway. - Yes, I am over-sensitive when it comes to epithets. - However, it is perfectly OK to use "werewolf" if the fic is written from Snape's PoV, because it is very likely that this is how Snape thinks about Remus. The example I used in the post - "his godfather's best friend" - perfectly illustrates how absurd epithets can get if used outside the context. The fic in question featured Harry, Remus and Draco, and Sirius wasn't even mentioned. Hence, the epithet sounded rather absurd.

I always do a double take and get lost whenever I see reference to size because I can't ever figure out just who they're referring to.

Yeah, I see the problem. Besides, there is hardly a more awkward phrasing than that.