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donnaimmaculataHere's little write-up that I announced some time ago. It's longish, and it's based on the assumption that Sirius and Severus are both shaggable.
First of all, I must admit a certain shallowness: I’m here for the porn. I don’t consider Rowling’s books as outstanding literature, but I enjoy the world she created, and I enjoy her characters, most of whom feel very real for me. I especially enjoy the interaction between Sirius, Severus and Remus in various combinations. I love these guys and I want to see them shag. That’s that.
Now, I’ve always liked antagonist sex. As cheesy romances go, I want the protagonists to fight and bitch and snark only to meet in a passionate kiss in the end, tear each other’s clothes off and then - fade to black. I’m not interested - in that kind of literary of movie-wise entertainment - in resolving issues and dealing with relationships. Reality, I’ve got home aplenty. What I want is hot, adrenaline-fuelled action that leads up to some just as hot shagging.
So although I love Remus dearly, I prefer pairing Sirius with Severus, because Remus doesn’t bitch. He remains cool and rational when faced with aggressive behaviour on Sirius’s or Severus’s part, and that’s not quite what I’m after.
That much said, I don’t think that in canon, Sirius and Severus could have ever had or ever come to an understanding. Their mutual hatred, as I see it, is not fuelled by pent-up lust, but by disgust - both personal and situation-wise. As teenagers, they hated what the other one represented, and as adults, there are too many issues between them to be solved easily. Especially since they’re both not exactly experts on rational communication.
But here it goes: I don’t write canon. The fandom doesn’t write canon. What we do is, we take canon and twist and turn it to meet our personal requirements and end up interpreting Rowling’s characters in a way she would be shocked to hear. It is possible, without stretching canon too much, to imagine that the forced handshake at the end of GoF implied red-hot lust rather than deepest disgust. It is more likely than to interpret the interaction between Draco and Lucius as indicating Malfoycest or the one between Fred and George as indicating Twincest. If one’s not prepared to reach beyond canon, one doesn’t end up writing Harry Potter slash.
I do want the characters in fandom to feel and act like Rowling’s creations, but since we put them in situations that aren’t imaginable within the novels, we have to alter their behaviour slightly to fit the altered reality, regardless which characters we use. After all, there aren’t many established couples in the books. (No, not even Sirius and Remus; personally, I don’t give Rowling enough credit to think she implied they’re gay. But of course they so fuck.) With any couple we create, we have to take liberties with the characters we use. So even though I've got my personal preferences as to the pairings I read, I am willing to accept plenty combinations, if only the author creates a believable setting and sticks to the characterisation we know from the books.
Then, there’s the notorious flashback scene in OotP, which apparently makes even former Snape/Black sympathisers think Sirius and Severus could never work together. But, frankly, I haven’t got any problem with that particular scene. We knew long before that Sirius sent Severus after a changed Remus, which, in my opinion, is a much, much worse thing to do than bully the boy in front of the school. Yes, Sirius’s behaviour was unforgivable, and yes, he was an arrogant jerk with a great fondness for violence - but that we knew before. That Sirius would make use of violence was plain enough all throughout PoA, from his slashing the Fat Lady to his breaking Ron’s leg. Plus his behaviour in the Shrieking Shack scene. Plus the undeniable fact that he had sent Severus after a werewolf.
I know that in fandom, many theories have included the idea of Severus’s having been involved with or interested in Sirius/Remus/James/Lily and that’s what made Sirius snap. But it was pretty clear that this theory would not be used in the novels. So there had to be a different explanation for the whole disaster, and it is plainly, Sirius was a cruel, hot-tempered kid who hated Severus enough, for reasons known only to himself, to kill him. And he grew up to be hot-tempered man with an enormous aggression potential. But that, as I said, we did know before OotP.
My only issue is the characterisation of Severus in the Worst Memory scene, where he was merely the helpless victim. It doesn’t go at all with what we’ve heard about him having been a master in Dark Arts - one should think he could have defended himself. And yes, they caught him by surprise, but I do think that the scene is told from a subjective point of view. There are many Pensieve theories around, and I support the one that says Pensieve memories are subjective. They are, after all, extracted from the bearer’s head years and years after the actual event, and everybody who’s ever read their old diaries might know how different the account of former events is from what one presently remembers.
I’m not saying that Sirius and James were perfectly innocent. They probably were pretty horrible in many respects, but from Severus’s memory alone, we don’t know what exactly happened.
Anyway, I still do think that sending another person after a fully-grown werewolf is a much worse thing to do than hang them in mid-air and try to take off their pants. Even if we would assume that Severus had provoked being-sent-after as opposed to not provoking being hexed and humiliated at all. Trying to kill your fellow students by means of one of your best friends is inexcusable - even had you been provoked, hexed, beaten, left for Filch, or looked at funnily. So since the pairing worked for me before I read this scene, it still does. And since I’ve never been a supporter of the theory that they really only lusted after each other at school and all that shit that happened was merely one huge misunderstanding, it doesn’t change anything about my view on this pairing. Snape/Black sex only works as the desperate variety, when they’ve got nothing to lose and only one another to shag. And, yes, that’s what I want. (Though some hurt/comfort is always appreciated, too.)
So, now for the final and most important argument against post-OotP Snape/Black: One half of the pairing is dead.
The problem here is, Rowling didn’t write a death. She wrote a Mysterious Disappearance.
Yes, I know she said Sirius won’t come back, that he’s dead and gone for good. But she didn’t say so in the novel. She had to state that in interviews, which for me means that I can largely ignore it. I haven’t read or watched one single interview with Rowling, and I base all my canon knowledge on the novels. Oh, I do believe her when I hear she says she won’t bring him back and that he’s gone in canon, but that doesn’t signify, because what she says is often not compatible with what she writes. Another, and less important, example to illustrate this is the fact that she obviously said there are more students per class than we see. Rowling stated this in interviews, but in her novels, she continues writing eight people in Gryffindor in Harry’s year. And for my purposes, I use what I see in the books, even though that’s not what the author intended.
It is, of course, a less significant matter whether there are eight or thirty Gryffindor students in Harry’s year than whether a major character died or not, but the principle remains the same. The author describes a fact or a situation in the book and has to give interviews to clarify what she meant. And honestly, would anyone believe that Sirius is dead if we haven’t all heard of Rowling’s interview? She created a scenario full of plot devices that can be used to bring him back, regardless whether one takes the element of time, the possibility of travel to a different dimension, or the Orpheus scenario. (Severus wasn’t a Death Eater for nothing. Yeah, that’s right, Snape, go on eat some death.) The difference between RL and narrative art - regardless whether it’s literature or film - is that in art, all pieces have to fall together in the end and introduced devices have to be used. There are only that many red herrings a novel can take.
I don’t care whether or not Rowling will use the mirror, the veil or any of the time-related devices that are connected with Sirius’s death. If she doesn’t, it was a stupid thing to introduce them all. But it would be a waste of a perfect set-up if fanfic writers would completely ignore all possibilities offered just because Rowling does so. After all, as I said before, we don’t write canon. We take the ingredients from canon, shake them, mix them and create new realities. If we can imagine hot cane action with Lucius & Son on the basis of the few occasions we’ve seen them together, we can make use of the multitude of possibilities that Rowling gave us to play around regarding Sirius’s disappearance.
On a side note: I’m not saying this merely because I like Sirius. I would say so if any other character were concerned (though not in quite as many words), apart from minor ones like Colin Creevey or Bill Weasley. Or Dumbledore, who, in the first four books, was merely a plot device and whose transition into a real character has not quite worked out.
First of all, I must admit a certain shallowness: I’m here for the porn. I don’t consider Rowling’s books as outstanding literature, but I enjoy the world she created, and I enjoy her characters, most of whom feel very real for me. I especially enjoy the interaction between Sirius, Severus and Remus in various combinations. I love these guys and I want to see them shag. That’s that.
Now, I’ve always liked antagonist sex. As cheesy romances go, I want the protagonists to fight and bitch and snark only to meet in a passionate kiss in the end, tear each other’s clothes off and then - fade to black. I’m not interested - in that kind of literary of movie-wise entertainment - in resolving issues and dealing with relationships. Reality, I’ve got home aplenty. What I want is hot, adrenaline-fuelled action that leads up to some just as hot shagging.
So although I love Remus dearly, I prefer pairing Sirius with Severus, because Remus doesn’t bitch. He remains cool and rational when faced with aggressive behaviour on Sirius’s or Severus’s part, and that’s not quite what I’m after.
That much said, I don’t think that in canon, Sirius and Severus could have ever had or ever come to an understanding. Their mutual hatred, as I see it, is not fuelled by pent-up lust, but by disgust - both personal and situation-wise. As teenagers, they hated what the other one represented, and as adults, there are too many issues between them to be solved easily. Especially since they’re both not exactly experts on rational communication.
But here it goes: I don’t write canon. The fandom doesn’t write canon. What we do is, we take canon and twist and turn it to meet our personal requirements and end up interpreting Rowling’s characters in a way she would be shocked to hear. It is possible, without stretching canon too much, to imagine that the forced handshake at the end of GoF implied red-hot lust rather than deepest disgust. It is more likely than to interpret the interaction between Draco and Lucius as indicating Malfoycest or the one between Fred and George as indicating Twincest. If one’s not prepared to reach beyond canon, one doesn’t end up writing Harry Potter slash.
I do want the characters in fandom to feel and act like Rowling’s creations, but since we put them in situations that aren’t imaginable within the novels, we have to alter their behaviour slightly to fit the altered reality, regardless which characters we use. After all, there aren’t many established couples in the books. (No, not even Sirius and Remus; personally, I don’t give Rowling enough credit to think she implied they’re gay. But of course they so fuck.) With any couple we create, we have to take liberties with the characters we use. So even though I've got my personal preferences as to the pairings I read, I am willing to accept plenty combinations, if only the author creates a believable setting and sticks to the characterisation we know from the books.
Then, there’s the notorious flashback scene in OotP, which apparently makes even former Snape/Black sympathisers think Sirius and Severus could never work together. But, frankly, I haven’t got any problem with that particular scene. We knew long before that Sirius sent Severus after a changed Remus, which, in my opinion, is a much, much worse thing to do than bully the boy in front of the school. Yes, Sirius’s behaviour was unforgivable, and yes, he was an arrogant jerk with a great fondness for violence - but that we knew before. That Sirius would make use of violence was plain enough all throughout PoA, from his slashing the Fat Lady to his breaking Ron’s leg. Plus his behaviour in the Shrieking Shack scene. Plus the undeniable fact that he had sent Severus after a werewolf.
I know that in fandom, many theories have included the idea of Severus’s having been involved with or interested in Sirius/Remus/James/Lily and that’s what made Sirius snap. But it was pretty clear that this theory would not be used in the novels. So there had to be a different explanation for the whole disaster, and it is plainly, Sirius was a cruel, hot-tempered kid who hated Severus enough, for reasons known only to himself, to kill him. And he grew up to be hot-tempered man with an enormous aggression potential. But that, as I said, we did know before OotP.
My only issue is the characterisation of Severus in the Worst Memory scene, where he was merely the helpless victim. It doesn’t go at all with what we’ve heard about him having been a master in Dark Arts - one should think he could have defended himself. And yes, they caught him by surprise, but I do think that the scene is told from a subjective point of view. There are many Pensieve theories around, and I support the one that says Pensieve memories are subjective. They are, after all, extracted from the bearer’s head years and years after the actual event, and everybody who’s ever read their old diaries might know how different the account of former events is from what one presently remembers.
I’m not saying that Sirius and James were perfectly innocent. They probably were pretty horrible in many respects, but from Severus’s memory alone, we don’t know what exactly happened.
Anyway, I still do think that sending another person after a fully-grown werewolf is a much worse thing to do than hang them in mid-air and try to take off their pants. Even if we would assume that Severus had provoked being-sent-after as opposed to not provoking being hexed and humiliated at all. Trying to kill your fellow students by means of one of your best friends is inexcusable - even had you been provoked, hexed, beaten, left for Filch, or looked at funnily. So since the pairing worked for me before I read this scene, it still does. And since I’ve never been a supporter of the theory that they really only lusted after each other at school and all that shit that happened was merely one huge misunderstanding, it doesn’t change anything about my view on this pairing. Snape/Black sex only works as the desperate variety, when they’ve got nothing to lose and only one another to shag. And, yes, that’s what I want. (Though some hurt/comfort is always appreciated, too.)
So, now for the final and most important argument against post-OotP Snape/Black: One half of the pairing is dead.
The problem here is, Rowling didn’t write a death. She wrote a Mysterious Disappearance.
Yes, I know she said Sirius won’t come back, that he’s dead and gone for good. But she didn’t say so in the novel. She had to state that in interviews, which for me means that I can largely ignore it. I haven’t read or watched one single interview with Rowling, and I base all my canon knowledge on the novels. Oh, I do believe her when I hear she says she won’t bring him back and that he’s gone in canon, but that doesn’t signify, because what she says is often not compatible with what she writes. Another, and less important, example to illustrate this is the fact that she obviously said there are more students per class than we see. Rowling stated this in interviews, but in her novels, she continues writing eight people in Gryffindor in Harry’s year. And for my purposes, I use what I see in the books, even though that’s not what the author intended.
It is, of course, a less significant matter whether there are eight or thirty Gryffindor students in Harry’s year than whether a major character died or not, but the principle remains the same. The author describes a fact or a situation in the book and has to give interviews to clarify what she meant. And honestly, would anyone believe that Sirius is dead if we haven’t all heard of Rowling’s interview? She created a scenario full of plot devices that can be used to bring him back, regardless whether one takes the element of time, the possibility of travel to a different dimension, or the Orpheus scenario. (Severus wasn’t a Death Eater for nothing. Yeah, that’s right, Snape, go on eat some death.) The difference between RL and narrative art - regardless whether it’s literature or film - is that in art, all pieces have to fall together in the end and introduced devices have to be used. There are only that many red herrings a novel can take.
I don’t care whether or not Rowling will use the mirror, the veil or any of the time-related devices that are connected with Sirius’s death. If she doesn’t, it was a stupid thing to introduce them all. But it would be a waste of a perfect set-up if fanfic writers would completely ignore all possibilities offered just because Rowling does so. After all, as I said before, we don’t write canon. We take the ingredients from canon, shake them, mix them and create new realities. If we can imagine hot cane action with Lucius & Son on the basis of the few occasions we’ve seen them together, we can make use of the multitude of possibilities that Rowling gave us to play around regarding Sirius’s disappearance.
On a side note: I’m not saying this merely because I like Sirius. I would say so if any other character were concerned (though not in quite as many words), apart from minor ones like Colin Creevey or Bill Weasley. Or Dumbledore, who, in the first four books, was merely a plot device and whose transition into a real character has not quite worked out.
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no subject
Date: 2003-12-18 02:00 am (UTC)I've started pairing Snape with Remus. It works out OK, if they're in the right mood. And there are a few Sirius/Remus writers around whom I like and who don't do fluffy. The pairing's got potential, only it's got to be handled by an, er, clear-sighted author who looks beyond the fluff.
Snape, go on eat some death
Hehe, counts on you to write it.
I am, actually... *g*
I don't even hope he will be back in canon for several reasons.
I don't hope so, either. It'd be too cheap if JKR brought him back after all that she's said about his death. But hey, we're not her! Finally, the disclaimers make sense.
Wouldn't hold it against you if you had, really now, lol.
No, I didn't expect you would *g*
As to Dumbledore, I have been toying with the idea to compile my opinions on him as well, but I can't be arsed when there's smut to be written ;-)
no subject
Date: 2003-12-18 01:49 am (UTC)Reality, I’ve got home aplenty. What I want is hot, adrenaline-fuelled action that leads up to some just as hot shagging.
Definitely. I mean, I delve into some more realistic fics, but sometimes I just (as
There are many Pensieve theories around, and I support the one that says Pensieve memories are subjective.
Me too. I mean, we've all seen Snape in canon and I just can't believe he would have been so passive, even if he had been taken by surprise. It doesn't make the scene any less sympathetic, I feel, because it's still obvious Snape was pretty well tortured by, if not all of MWPP, then Sirius and James, at least.
She wrote a Mysterious Disappearance.
And thank God for that. Makes his presence in post-OotP fanfic much easier to swallow.
Yeah, that’s right, Snape, go on eat some death.
*snort* Oh, the entendres.
And though unrelated to the rest of your essay:
Or Dumbledore, who, in the first four books, was merely a plot device and whose transition into a real character has not quite worked out.
God, yes. And he could be such an interesting character, too, I feel. The fandom has really helped me out in both the Dumbledore and Voldemort characters, both of whom I feel aren't nearly as strong of presences in canon as Rowling wants them to be.
Thanks for this. Lots to think about here.
no subject
Date: 2003-12-18 01:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-12-18 02:15 am (UTC)I like it when it's realistic as in, it's got to have a believable scenario and the characters have to act in an understandable manner. And I do read plenty of gen fics, too. But, you know, I'm not interested in reading about the characters dealing with tedious relationships problems. I want a mixture of magic, adventure, tension and, optionally, sex. I'm simple like that.
we've all seen Snape in canon and I just can't believe he would have been so passive
Exactly. Snape should fight back. That's what's essentially Snape-ish.
Makes his presence in post-OotP fanfic much easier to swallow.
I'd feel queasy about bringing Sirius back had he'd been AK'ed and buried. But as it is, his presence in post-OotP fiction doesn't feel wrong - as long as there is a good explanation for it.
The fandom has really helped me out in both the Dumbledore and Voldemort characters, both of whom I feel aren't nearly as strong of presences in canon as Rowling wants them to be.
The problem is they haven't grown to the standard JKR wants to achieve with her books. The novels are getting more complex, more mature, but the main baddy (well, all baddies, really) and Dumbledore aren't. Throughout the books, Dumbledore has been used to facilitate a quick and clean conclusion, so the characters didn't have to deal with the aftermath of events. Dumbledore would summarise the events to Harry and the reader, and Harry would get sent away knowing that Dumbledore would set things right. Obviously, that's no longer the case, and this is where his character slips away.
Thanks for this.
You're very welcome. Thanks for reading and commenting :-)
no subject
Date: 2003-12-18 01:51 am (UTC)Plus, you give me the chance to use my Snack icon.
So in exchange, let me send you to read this excellent fic at
no subject
Date: 2003-12-18 02:20 am (UTC)Thanks! It's probably what many Snape/Black shippers believe, otherwise we wouldn't be shipping them.
Plus, you give me the chance to use my Snack icon.
Your Snack icon is always a pleasure to behold. May you have plenty of opportunities to use it.
Thanks for the Smutmas rec! If that's the one for
But I might just as well go and read it again. And again.
no subject
Date: 2003-12-18 02:06 am (UTC)Wow, at least 95% agreement from this corner. Very well put. The 5%...well I've read some great Snape/Remus so I can definitely enjoy them together, but I have become obsessed with Snape/Sirius lately. Also, it being an obsession, I can give people leeway on the 'has to be total desperation' for them to have sex thing and er, overlook it a little if necessary *g*
I'd love the name Death Eaters to be at least questioned by some of the characters. If I came across a bunch of people calling themselves that who were after my blood I'd damn well want to know exactly what it implied - shame they can't ask too many questions and give away everything we're presumably not allowed to know yet...*sigh*
no subject
Date: 2003-12-18 02:34 am (UTC)I've read some great Snape/Remus so I can definitely enjoy them together,
Oh, I can enjoy them together if they're well written. But I think it's even harder to get Remus/Severus right than to get Sirius/Severus right.
I enjoy Sirius/Remus too, if it's not CryingGirl!Remus and Slut!Sirius. I love them in all combination, plus all three together. But Sirius/Severus is on top of the list, for the reasons stated.
I can give people leeway on the 'has to be total desperation' for them to have sex thing and er, overlook it a little if necessary *g*
There are some good romances out there, for example by Fabula Rasa. But it's got to start all dark as desperate. Long talks and shy kisses, followed by a hesitant launch into a relationship just don't work for this pairing. Aggression, verbal abuses, fighting for dominance - that's the stuff! *gets embarrassingly excited*
love the name Death Eaters to be at least questioned by some of the characters.
Voldemort's aim was to achieve immortality. That's quite a hint, I think.
I've been nursing a theory that I attempt to apply in the Snape/Black fic should I ever retrieve the bugger from the CD. Technology, eh?
We really have the same weird hours, it seems.
no subject
Date: 2003-12-18 02:54 am (UTC)Oh yes, definitely. Remus lacks the spitting intensity that makes me love the other two together. But when it's right it absolutely destroys me *points at
There are some good romances out there, for example by Fabula Rasa. But it's got to start all dark as desperate. Long talks and shy kisses, followed by a hesitant launch into a relationship just don't work for this pairing. Aggression, verbal abuses, fighting for dominance - that's the stuff! *gets embarrassingly excited*
Fabula Rasa was the example I was thinking of yes. Shy kisses and hesitance between those two...er no, no thanks. And your description...gah. The Remus/James and the Snarry are getting no more attention tonight, that's for sure *runs off for a quick dose of Snacky smut before bed*
I've been nursing a theory that I attempt to apply in the Snape/Black fic should I ever retrieve the bugger from the CD. Technology, eh?
*still crying at the thought of such a thing being lost*
We really have the same weird hours, it seems.
I'm fairly nocturnal even without working stupid hours like I am right now. Still, the game is *hopefully* going to be off our hands for a few weeks after tomorrow *heaves enormous sigh of relief*
no subject
Date: 2003-12-18 11:13 am (UTC)What is the main reason you can’t believe this scene is what happened? That you can’t see Snape as a victim? We see Snape as he has become now, we can’t be sure that that’s how he always was. He has control issues (he was helpless once, he doesn’t want to be helpless again), he joined at some point in his school life a gang of Slytherins that later became Death Eaters (my guess is he hadn’t joined them when the bullying scene happened or else where were they? Probably to stop what was happening to him, there’s strength in numbers). He was outnumbered in that scene, even if he does have this extensive knowledge of Dark Arts they are useless without a wand and when it’s 2 to 1. And take his nickname. Snivellus?<./i> Is that someone who you’d have reason to fear as a kid? Even the fact that Sirius sent Snape in the Shrieking Shack explains it, even an idiot like Sirius should think that it would be dangerous for Remus to send a powerful wizard to face him. What if Snape hurt the wolf?
I just don’t see Snape as this kick ass wizard that he appears to be to everyone. We don’t have enough canon that would support this. He did well in a duel but that was against Lockhart! Anyone would do well. And Dumbledore does seem to find Snape useful when there is an emergency (the whole deal with Crouch Jr in GoF) but Dumbledore doesn’t have that many choices and the people he keeps around him seem to be chosen for the fact that they owe him and not their abilities (Hagrid is an imbecile and frankly dangerous, Trelawney is useless and yet has a teaching position that she doesn’t deserve because Dumbledore finds her useful).
The Pensieve Scene appears very consistent to me with what we’ve seen of adult Snape in canon. It actually explains his hatred very well. He wouldn’t hate the Marauders so much if he had been able to defend himself against them.
no subject
Date: 2003-12-18 11:14 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-12-18 02:08 pm (UTC)I can see it as nothing but objective considering the fact that it contains information that Snape couldn’t possibly know.
I see it as subjective for exactly the reasons you stated (i.e. the werewolf thing). See, when we first encounter the Pensieve, Dumbledore says he uses it when he has "too many thoughts and memories crammed into [his] mind". Thoughts and memories are subjective things. He extracts them many years after the actual event happened. In the meantime, the brain's had time to process the information and create a memory that is based not merely on the fact, on the event that happened, but which is tainted with the experience of subsequent years.
So at the time when the event happened, when Severus and Remus were taking their OWLs, Snape didn't know about Remus's being a werewolf. But over the following years, the knowledge that Remus was a werewolf has imprinted itself into this mind, and when he thinks 'Remus' (or rather: 'Lupin'), he thinks 'werewolf'. It is not possible, in hindsight, to separate the objective knowledge one had at some point in one's life from the additional layers of facts that have been added to this knowledge over the years.
That's what I meant mentioning old diaries. If today, I wrote down some event, say from school, and compared it with the version I wrote down right after that thing happened, I would get two completely different accounts on events. Because now, my mind doesn't separate between what I knew then and what I know now. When I think of, say, Sam from school, my mind automatically supplies that he's gay, even though I didn't know it at that time. So if someone fell into my mind and rummaged around my school memories, they would encounter gay Sam. My mind would automatically close the gap and supply facts.
As to the conversation Harry witnesses, he witnesses what Severus today imagines they might have been talking about. His concept of the dialogues that passed between the other boys is based on his experience with them, the knowledge he gained later, as well as his feelings towards them. The crucial point is that the things we see are thoughts and memories of today's Snape. If they're memories, they cannot be objective. And if they're extracted from one individual's mind, they must be memories, because humans don't store objective facts.
That much said, I do think that Sirius and James were clearly the aggressors and that Severus was the victim. I just cannot, for the reasons stated, quite accept the black-and-whiteness of their characterisation. An additional aspect why I think Severus's memories are exeggarated and, in a way, portray the boys as caricatures of themselves is Peter. I can't and won't accept that Peter was really that moroninc tag-along whose sole purpose was to wet his pants about James. Therefore, I think that the way the boys are described is the way Severus catagorises them: James, the bragging jock, Sirius the uber-cool violent aggressor, Remus reading in the background, and Peter getting all excited about James. As the general assumption is that the boys were in different houses, they didn't know each other well. Therefore, Severus picks out one major character trait, character flaw, he notices and characterises the respective boy with this attribute only. I am sure Sirius was a violent jerk, but I'm also sure he had many other qualities, which Severus simply never encountered. And just as Harry isn't able and willing to understand Snape's multi-layered character and thinks Snape's merely the cruel, sarcastic bully, Severus wasn't willing and able to see more in the other boys than what they appeared to him. And I honestly can't blame him for that.
So yeah, that's, in a nutshell, the Subjective Pensieve Theory. It works better for me than the Objective Pensieve Theory, but as long as JKR doesn't specify, we'll never know.
no subject
Date: 2003-12-18 02:43 pm (UTC)I can't and won't accept that Peter was really that moroninc tag-along whose sole purpose was to wet his pants about James.
They thought he was. And how about PoA? In the conversation Harry overhears Madam Rosmerta describes him as "Pettigrew... that fat little boy who was always tagging around after
them at Hogwarts" and McGonagall adds to that that Peter hero worshipped Black and Potter. Sounds pretty accurate to me. What else was Peter supposed to do in the Pensieve scene? And just how much was Snape supposed to know about the powerplay within the Marauders' little group?
Black and whitedness of characterisation is something that Rowliing does way too often to surprise me in this case.
no subject
Date: 2003-12-18 08:08 pm (UTC)If all he ever was was just a tag-a-long, why would they ever have included him in on half the things they did? I mean, in retrospect he might not have had a lot of respect, but they certainly trusted him enough to trust him with secrets like Remus's lycanthropy, the whole illegal animagi thing, and Sirius even trusts him enough to make him the secrets keeper. If all he were was a groupie, would they really have trusted him that much or involved him that much in their plans? It's not like MacGonagall and Rosemerta are unbiased in their opinions and perceptions, either. Given the extent to which the marauders managed to sneak around and sneak past their professors (the map, their nights with Lupin, turning into illegal animagi, there are probably thousands more examples that we haven't been told because they don't pertain directly to Harry or Harry's story), it wouldn't surpise me in the least if someone outside of their group remained utterly clueless as to its working.
My problem with the pensieve scene is that it's just a snapshot. It gives you the picture, but no information behind why the picture exists. You can look at a picture of the world trade center blowing up and know the rough sequence of events that led to the destruction. Terrorists hijack planes, planes crash into buildings, people in buildings panic, buildings collapse under the stress, people die. But there is still *so* much to the whole event that is not told by just analyzing what happened in the space of the two hours in which it occured.
The pensieve scene can give some insight, but I think it creates more questions than it ever actually answers, and I think that taking any of it at face value is dangerous. While I don't condone what James and Sirius did, I do think that they have their reasons for acting the way they do, and we're not privy to any of that. We don't know how, when, where, or why the animosity between James and Severus started. We don't know how the rest of the marauders got dragged into it. You can tell the sequence of events from the pensieve memory if you buy into the idea that it's not biased, but that sequence of events does little to nothing to actually establish motives, history or even the thoughts of the characters themselves.
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Date: 2003-12-18 09:10 pm (UTC)I share your view on Peter, and I think that assuming he was mereley the idiot whom the other boys dragged along, being friends with him for seven years at school at least, would mean to insult James's, Sirius's and Remus's intelligence and judgement. Surely, even though they wanted to be admired, they wouldn't have put up with someone they considered unworthy for such a long time. Who would? Besides, Peter managed an animagus transformation in his fifth year; Harry, in his fifth year, has problems with a Vanishing Charm. Consequently, Peter can't have been completey hopeless, even if he needed help.
My problem with the pensieve scene is that it's just a snapshot.
My problem with it is that it is not only a snapshot but a snapshot taken years later (i.e. at the point when Snape extracts it from his mind) by a personally involved, emotional, and thus biased person. I go along with your WTC comparison. Watching Pensieve memories is a bit like watching the news: during the war in Iraq, we in Germany received completely different news than you did in the States, and none of those were lies as such. There was a different point of view, a different emphasis, a different historical and socio-cultural background before which the news were sent and received. The same Pensieve memory from Sirius's point of view would look different, because his perception is different. Or from Lily's point of view. None of them would be a lie, and I'm sure James would be an arrogant jerk in all, but the way Sirius see Arrogant!James is the exact opposite to the way Lily does. We just don't get the full picture from one individual's Pensieve memory.
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Date: 2003-12-18 10:15 pm (UTC)*sheepish grin* Of course! :) He's a little shit, but he's my favorite little shit. ^-^;;
Consequently, Peter can't have been completey hopeless, even if he needed help.
Being the packrat that I am, I usually tend to keep track of arguments that seem pretty convincing. This was posted to a friend's locked entry on my friendslist about Peter that I thought was pretty spot on:
From
It is my personal, unshakeable conviction that Peter Pettigrew is not pathetic at all. The only people who describe him that way are those who don't know him very well, and Sirius, who is... uhm... a little peeved at the time. Lupin never refers to him as pathetic. Neither does Dumbledore. But let's look at what Peter's actually done, shall we?
1. Became an illegal Animagus by age fifteen. (Sure, he needed help, but he still did it.)
2. Passed information to Voldemort for a year without anyone finding out -- not his closest friends; not Snape, whose job was to find out stuff like that; not Dumbledore himself.
3. Cornered by an enraged Sirius Black, he improvises a remarkably successfull frame-up. Which, BTW, required him to slice off his own finger without any of the witnesses noticing, and then casting a spell that killed twelve people with his wand held behind his back. Everyone thought that spell was the scariest shit on earth when they believed Sirius had cast it.
4. When Bertha Jorkins recognized him on his way to Albania and got suspicious, he talked her into going off alone for a "nighttime stroll" with him, then overpowered and abducted her. Granted, Bertha wasn't the brightest pea in the pod, but even not-too-bright women generally know not to go off alone at night with strange men who were supposed to have been dead for thirteen years.
5. Can cast Avada Kedavra, which, we're told, requires a fair bit of magical power.
6. Is the only DE we see actually talking back to Voldemort.
7. Slices off his own hand in the middle of a Dark Magic ritual and then, by gum, goes on and finishes the ritual.
So, no, I don't think little Peter is pathetic at all. I think he's actually pretty damn cunning and really good at manipulating people, and he uses the appearance of patheticness to get people to underestimate him.
My problem with it is that it is not only a snapshot but a snapshot taken years later (i.e. at the point when Snape extracts it from his mind) by a personally involved, emotional, and thus biased person.
Dude, I love the way you took the analogy to that next step, and I loved reading your theory on the Pensieve. It certainly is a tempting way to interpret why parts like Remus's lycanthropy were included when Snape isn't supposed to know. (And it did seem so off to me when I read it that something that wasn't supposed to be in Snape's memory, or even in his head at all, suddenly appeared out of nowhere. I mean, the whole idea of a Pensieve is to take the memory out of your head, and your head alone, so you can hold it somewhere else. What possible explanation could there be for why something that you did not experience personally end up in a memory that is supposedly your own? I think you made a very persuasive argument. ^-^)
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Date: 2003-12-18 10:16 pm (UTC)It is hard to argue with someone who doesn't take the Scene and what was said in it as the truth but when Harry tells Sirius that the only reason they attacked Snape in that scene was that they were bored Sirius and Remus accept that. When trying to get into why the animosity started, all Sirius has to say is that James hated the Dark Arts and "Snape was just this little oddball who was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts" Was Snape dangerous? I'll go back to "Snivellus" Would anyone dare call a dangerous wizard that? Would they send him to meet Remus with the knowledge that Remus could be in danger? But he is who he is and it is simply "the fact that he exists" (as Snape -subjectivelly?- remembers) that makes our noble Gryffindors hate and torment him. James because he hates the Dark Arts, Sirius because he wants to prove himself as a Gryffindor, Peter because he idolises the two and Remus because he's too afraid to stand up to his friends... Just a few thoughts on possible motives.
Did the Marauders change with time? James died and whether he changed before remains questionable in my mind. Sirius remained a bullying prick, Remus is still spinelss and Peter still a sycophant. They don't seem to have changed all that much from what Snape remembers.
Subjectively and as they are now our Marauders give no good reason for their behaviour. Were they all around decent guys besides that? It's hard to say, isn't it? Especially considering the sources of information on their character. James' sins were swept under a rag after he died with everyone painting Snape as the bad guy in everything to do with that rivalry. Remus seems to have this tendency to rewrite history and Sirius... Sirius was still a bully and an idiot until he died. After all this I wouldn't blame Harry if the only information about his father that he'll be willing to accept as true comes from Snape. Everyone else has lied to him.
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Date: 2003-12-18 11:38 pm (UTC)Actually, I took that as them completely glossing over the past. Just because Harry asks them a personal question, it doesn't mean they're going to spill their guts to a fifteen year old. I also wonder how much they actually know about the whys of the reasons behind tormenting Snape. This was a fight that was started initially between James and Snape. One of them is dead and the other ain't exactly forthcoming on the subject.
Would anyone dare call a dangerous wizard that?
I think the maruaders would deliberately poke a three headed dog and call it Fluffy if given the opportunity. Half the crap they get into is dangerous, and they treat it with that same calvier attitude. They run with Remus on full moons. They deliberately ignore rules that are set in place for their own safety. They were an accident waiting to happen.
Would they send him to meet Remus with the knowledge that Remus could be in danger?
I'll buy that, and I'll buy the idea that maybe when they compare Snape to Remus, Snape comes up lacking. But it's only Sirius who sends Snape to the shack, we've been told. And Sirius is not known for his rational thinking in the heat of the moment.
makes our noble Gryffindors
Who said they were noble? I think they're scared little brats who are so intent on running from their fears and proving themselves brave, that they're a danger to themselves and others. They are just as insecure and suffer just as low a self esteem as Snape does, they just handle it differently then he does.
They don't seem to have changed all that much from what Snape remembers.
O_o;; How could they have *not* changed? Given everything that their group went through and that they managed on their own, it's impossible for me to fathom that events they lived through--like the Potters dying, Azkaban, living as a rat for thirteen years, being betrayed by the people they trusted most, the list goes on and on--didn't affect them at all. Snape may not choose to see them as they are as adults and remember them in the same fashion as they were when they were kids, but that's his choice. I'll agree that there are elements about Sirius, Remus, and Peter that are the same as when they were kids, but no matter who you are and no matter how stunted you are as a person, you change as you grow older and experience new things. I am not the same person today as I was at eighteen, and the only thing that happened to me was college. No one died. I didn't experience prison or the loss of all of my friends. The things the marauders go through are life changing events.
Even Snape isn't the same person he was as a kid. He's soured on life completely. He's become the very thing he hated so much as a teenager. He bullies and berates and belittles kids for the hell of it and out of some delusional paranoid perceptions. He gets pleasure out of reducing Neville to tears. He's handed a student like Hermione--who may be annoying, but obviously has a thrist to learn and the capability to be brilliant--and all he can do is attempt to cripple her at every turn. He taunts Sirius with Azkaban and rubs in the man's face that he's confined and useless at Grimmauld Place.
Sirius was still a bully and an idiot until he died.
-_- I don't know how you can see it that way, but I think at this point I'll just agree to disagree. We aren't going to see eye to eye on this.
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Date: 2003-12-18 08:49 pm (UTC)Oh, I am by no means trying to convert you to think along the only correct lines, i.e. MINE, MINE, MINE. There are obviously different takes on the Pensieve scene, and the fun of the fandom is the exchange of opinions, after all.
As to Peter's position within the group,
Black and whitedness of characterisation is something that Rowliing does way too often
Yes, and this is exactly why I have no problems whatsoever to interpret the Pensieve scene as not-quite-accurate. Because the characterisation there is far too flat. These boys are not quite as one-dimensional as Severus's point of view makes us believe. Basically, what we (i.e. fandom) do is to look for more depth within the characters than Rowling's novels offer. Canon!Snape is a sadistic, unfair bully. Of course, it is obvious that there is more to his character than what Harry sees, and this is what we do: We look for the depth and create a more human, more complex person. He's got his reasons to act the way he does. (Althouth I do think that the cruelty he displays when dealing with his students is quite unexusable. He abuses his position as an authority figure to perform mental torture on innocent teenagers. He hates Harry for James, but he sadistically insults 14-year-old Hermione just because he can, without any foundation apart from the fact that she's annoying (and I do find her annoying) and Harry's friend.)
15-year-old canon!Sirius is a violent bully. But, as in Snape's case, he deserves the benefit of the doubt. Something about his upbringing made him turn into this angry, aggressive kid, and he uses his anger to hurt others. It is wrong, but it is still understandable.
In a way, I am grateful for the fact that we only get glimpses of the adult characters. It makes it so much more interesting to read them and try to understand them. And it offers countless possibilities to interpret them, too.
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Date: 2003-12-18 10:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-12-18 11:49 pm (UTC)I don't think he does, either. There are other sides to him. We do see the memory, and we are given glances of how hard it is for him to tread that line between Death Eater and Order member. He's a very unhappy man, and it does a lot to explain his actions and reactions. He does get an unfair bad wrap on occasion. He also antagonizes people into giving him that bad wrap too. There is evidence in canon that he can be more than just a bully and that there is more depth to him.
I can say the exact same thing of Sirius though and give just as reasonable of an argument. Harry's trust in Sirius and his obvious attachment to Sirius notwithstanding, Sirius bends over backwards for that kid. He puts himself at personal risk for Harry, constantly. Hell, half of his confrontations with Snape in OotP are done out of loyalty to Harry. He might be misguided, but he is more than just a bully, incapable of feeling. He has as many reasons to act the way he does, and to be as upset and pissed off at the world as Snape is, if not more. Maybe in the context of the first four books, that would be a bit harder to argue, I think I could still do it, but the fifth book makes it very hard to argue that Sirius is simply a one dimensional bully along the Draco standard.
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Date: 2003-12-19 01:32 am (UTC)And I can't argue that Sirius loves Harry. It was rather creepy in OotP, though how he couldn't tell James and Harry apart. Creepy and very sad.
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Date: 2003-12-19 03:20 pm (UTC)I think the problem is not that Sirius can't tell James and Harry apart, but that there's a whole lot of stuff Sirius just doesn't know about Harry, and he fills the gaps in his knowledge with what he knows of James. Which isn't that unusual; I know that many of my mother's friends expect me to act like my mother, and these are people who've spent a lot more time with me than Sirius has spent with Harry. I bet when my friends' kids grow up, I'll be falling into the same trap, too. :-)
In Sirius' case, the situation is made worse by the fact that the years he spent strutting around Hogwarts with James were probably the best years of his life, and he wants to recapture them. I think Hermione had a good point when she suggested that Sirius was trying to live vicariously through Harry.
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Date: 2003-12-19 04:08 pm (UTC)I don't know. Sirius and Harry still creeped me out. Harry was forced to become the adult in that situation and to feel like he had to protect and "save" Sirius from the moment he first met him. Harry created a perfect godfather to go with the perfect image of his dead father and all of that crumbled in OotP...
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Date: 2003-12-19 04:26 pm (UTC)That's very true. First thing he hears from people he encounters in the magical world is how much he resembles his father, but for his eyes. He's got his mothers eyes. (That's paraphrasing Dumbledore.)
One if the wizards - was it Kingsley? - who come to bring him away from the Dursleys says something along the same lines, as well, as does McGonagall when she has him made Seeker in PS. So Sirius is not the only one who compares Harry to James, and Sirius jumped straight from seeing James for the last time in 1981 to seeing Harry 12 years later without the trace of the possibility to see Harry's development into an independent individual.
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Date: 2003-12-19 04:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-12-19 05:06 pm (UTC)Additionally, Sirius meets restrictions whenever he tries to do something for Harry and offer him support all throughout OotP. I think that contributes significantly to the tragedy of their relationship - Sirius has never been able to display his full potential as Harry's guardian.
Among all these adults, many of whom have known Harry for several years and should know that the boy keeps getting in trouble simply because he tries to find out things he's not told, Sirius is the only one who wants to inform Harry about what's going on. He acts against Dumbledore's orders (Dumbledore, who has used Harry's curiosity since the events in PS), has to fight Molly's objections and her outright cruel accusation regarding Azkaban, and is cut short by Lupin, who never volunteers any information unless he's got his back to the wall. (Even though Lupin should have know better after so many things have gone wrong in the past because he chose to not give any information.)
So there's Sirius, trapped in this house he hates and dealing with psychological and emotional trauma and severe depression, and still he focuses on offering Harry advice as well as he can. It might be arguable whether DA was a good idea, but at least Sirius took their wish seriously to want to be able to defend themselves.
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Date: 2003-12-19 05:37 pm (UTC)Word. Sirius takes a lot of flak, both from the other characters and from the fans, for being reckless and irrational in OotP, and at times he is, but he's also the only adult in the book who wants to keep Harry informed and included in what's going on, while everyone else wants to keep Harry ignorant and isolated -- something Dumbledore himself eventually acknowledges as a mistake. Sirius may not have done a great job of being a mature and sensible parent figure for Harry -- a man who spent most of his adult life in a brutal prison is really not equipped to parent a troubled teenager -- but he's the only adult in Harry's life who genuinely *tried*.
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Date: 2003-12-31 06:53 am (UTC)Loved reading the argument! Thanks for the food for thought. :)
damn you, damn you, damn you...
Date: 2004-01-05 11:59 pm (UTC)so much sense that i think i'm going to have to abandon my pensieve = canon notion.... Peter's characterization shocked the hell out of me, for all those why-peter-is-badass reasons listed elsewhere, so that won't be too hard to let go of...
but james and lily!!!!!!!!! i LOVE the way they act in the pensieve!!!! i love what an arrogant, evil little prick james is. i love how lily takes him on and yet (or rather, because she) is so obviously atrracted to the berk.
but on the other hand, sirius certainly jived with how i imagined him. and when harry related the memory to sirius and remus, they didn't argue with the facts of what happened... so maybe snape's knowledge colors the memory, but not his emotions, and maybe he just didn't know peter well enough for his mind to give him much depth
and snape himself in the memory didn't strike me as passive at all, simply not as skilled as james, which isn't hard to imagine, given the fact that james was supposed to be the best at everything And had backup. snape's awkward walk, hs wanting to be left alone, his vicious relatiation... these all fit perfectly well with an awkward, socially inept teenage boy who will later find acceptance and confidence with the death eaters. and remember, the person who said that snape knew so many curses was sirius, and it's not like he would hesitate to exagerate snape's evilness, especially if he associates snape with his own family.
on snack - angry bitch!sex, absolutely. not my cup of tea, but i appreciate the sentiment. ...and the hot sex...
Re: damn you, damn you, damn you...
Date: 2004-01-06 12:14 am (UTC)I don't try to convince anyone to agree with my views, I just love to inflict my interpretationson unsuspecting readers... That's what fanon is all about!
I am also convinced that Sirius was a vicious, violent jerk, and that James was an arrogant prick, and that Remus didn't want to interfere... It is in accordance with what we see of them as adults, and they agree they have acted that way. The only objection I've got against seeing the Pensieve scene as fully objective is that it has been filtered through Snape's emotions and memories. The facts were all there, but they're tainted by Snape's emotions.
That is also very true that we learn about Snape from Sirius. But we also learn about Sirius through Snape's eyes, in this particular scene. Since I am giving Snape the benefit of the doubt - he joined the Death Eaters, he is a bullying git, after all, and still, I don't say he's Evil(TM) - I think it is only right to allow the same for Sirius.
Oh, and I did friend you right back :-)