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donnaimmaculataLast week, it took my fancy to read Lucy Maud Montgomery's "Emily" series. I've never really been into the series as a child and have never owned and read the first book, so I hunted it down on the Internet. And then I met Dean Priest.
She heard him say, "My God!" softly to himself. [...] "How can I help you?" said Dean Priest hoarsely, as if to himself. "I cannot reach you--and it looks as if the slightest touch or jar would send that broken earth over the brink. I must go for a rope-- and to leave you here alone--like this. Can you wait, child?"
And then:
Emily knew he had been to college, that he was thirty-six years old--which to Emily seemed a venerable age--and well-off; that he had a malformed shoulder and limped slightly; that he cared for nothing save books nor ever had; that he lived with an older brother and travelled a great deal; and that the whole Priest clan stood somewhat in awe of his ironic tongue. Aunt Nancy had called him a "cynic." Emily did not know what a cynic was but it sounded interesting. She looked him over carefully and saw that he had delicate, pale features and tawny-brown hair. His lips were thin and sensitive, with a whimsical curve. She liked his mouth. Had she been older she would have known why--because it connoted strength and tenderness and humour.
Here, I had to stop reading and drink some cold water. Now, apart from the fact that I've got this insane thin-lips fetish (I'm probably the only person in the fandom who gets actually turned on by Snape's thin lips - instead of ignoring them bravely or explaining them away as being rather pouty, really, once one gets a better look at them. I rather ignore fandom!Sirius' lips being described as "full" and "girly" and - ew! - pink and - ewww! - fleshy.) - who could resist the connotation of "strength and tenderness and humour"?
But within a few paragraphs only, I fell out of love as quickly as I had fallen in. There are some things I do find disturbing, especially when they are voiced in passing and matter-of-factly. Then again, that's probably just me.
So, Dean Priest is doing very well, being equipped with attributes such as an "aloof dignity", "dreamy green eyes" and a "beautiful, musical and caressing voice". However, at the end of his conversation with 12-years-old Emily, he decides he's going to marry her in future. "I think I'll wait for you." At this point, Dean Priest dropped in my esteem from the top of the list of literary crushes right into nothingness.
I have this very deeply rooted aversion against grown men falling in love with girls who could be their daughters. While I don't think that Dean Priest is a pedophile (or, for that matter, Jane Austen's Col. Brandon or Mr. Knightley, who both fall in love with underage girls) and that his relationship to Emily is abusive, I do wonder what sort of man looks for a partner for life among little girls. It is not so much the relationship between the two characters I find disturbing but more the man himself. Because what makes me like a literary character is the fact that I can relate to them as I could relate to a real person. (This is why I like Rowling's novels so much: the characters feel real to me.) So while I feel about characters in novels just like I feel about people in RL, I apply the same criteria to them. If one of my friends, in his 20s or 30s, fell for a 12-years-old girl (like Emily, or Emma, who is 12 when 28-years-old Mr. Knightley falls in love with her) or with a 16-years-old girl, or even with a slightly older girl who's still at school and lives with her parents and leads a life so completely different from the lives my peer group leads, I would at least shake my head, be certainly disturbed and possibly alarmed.
So while I read and enjoyed Lolita (and fully understood what Humbert Humbert found so attractive about the girl), I find scenarios such as the one with Dean Priest or Col. Brandon's and Marianne's "romance" more disturbing. Because they are told in a way that indicates that it's perfectly normal to think of a schoolgirl as of one's future wife.
It is not so much the age difference that bugs me. (Two of my best friends are involved with/married to men twice their age.) It's more the difference in life styles and maturity levels. While I believe it's perfectly reasonable for a 50-years-old man to seriously fall in love with a woman in her late 20s, I don't think that a man in his late 30s should think of a 12-year-old as a potential partner for life. Again, if a friend of mine did, I would wonder whether he's not up to handling a woman his age, who is is equal in experience and maturity. And while I wouldn't necessarily think him a pervert (I can fully see the sexual appeal of young girls), I would think him weak. A grown man should know better than seduce underage girls just because he can and because they're willing (or unresisting). I don't underestimate schoolgirls; I was pretty calculating myself and got involved with far older men. But even then, I knew the relationships were not balanced and that I couldn't respect the men. I feel that if a man can't find his match among his equals, there is something seriously wrong with him.
This is incidentally the reason why I am not interested in Snarry fics. Not because I think it's necessarily an abusive relationship or because I think Snape is just blatantly forcing Harry - and the dynamics between them, all the hatred and aggression, is an aspect that strongly appeals to me - but because I lose a great part of my respect for Severus when he starts making out with Harry instead of focusing his energy on his equals. (What's wrong with Remus, eh?) Especially since Severus has experienced Harry as his student: there is a huge authority gap between them. Even if Snape is not actively abusive, he is the one with experience and in control - or should be. No matter how I look at this, whether Snape is actively in charge (thus abusing his position and manipulating Harry into a relationship), whether Snape merely follows his baser instincts (thus dehumanising himself) or whether Snape is seduced by Harry (thus giving up his control and giving himself over into Harry's hands), I lose a good part of my respect for the man.
This is merely an illustration of how my mind works and on why I am a dedicated supporter of relationships among equals. As to Snape/Black, while I can see them post Azkaban, I don't see them ending up together at school. In the narrative presence (well, before Sirius' death), they are both similarly fucked up, are both living under conditions they hate and haven't much control about their lives. They are equal in experience and situation (with regard to quantity, not quality).
But this is not supposed to be another pro-Snack essay. I originally intended to talk more about men's lips. Oh well. Maybe next time.
I need my bed now.
She heard him say, "My God!" softly to himself. [...] "How can I help you?" said Dean Priest hoarsely, as if to himself. "I cannot reach you--and it looks as if the slightest touch or jar would send that broken earth over the brink. I must go for a rope-- and to leave you here alone--like this. Can you wait, child?"
And then:
Emily knew he had been to college, that he was thirty-six years old--which to Emily seemed a venerable age--and well-off; that he had a malformed shoulder and limped slightly; that he cared for nothing save books nor ever had; that he lived with an older brother and travelled a great deal; and that the whole Priest clan stood somewhat in awe of his ironic tongue. Aunt Nancy had called him a "cynic." Emily did not know what a cynic was but it sounded interesting. She looked him over carefully and saw that he had delicate, pale features and tawny-brown hair. His lips were thin and sensitive, with a whimsical curve. She liked his mouth. Had she been older she would have known why--because it connoted strength and tenderness and humour.
Here, I had to stop reading and drink some cold water. Now, apart from the fact that I've got this insane thin-lips fetish (I'm probably the only person in the fandom who gets actually turned on by Snape's thin lips - instead of ignoring them bravely or explaining them away as being rather pouty, really, once one gets a better look at them. I rather ignore fandom!Sirius' lips being described as "full" and "girly" and - ew! - pink and - ewww! - fleshy.) - who could resist the connotation of "strength and tenderness and humour"?
But within a few paragraphs only, I fell out of love as quickly as I had fallen in. There are some things I do find disturbing, especially when they are voiced in passing and matter-of-factly. Then again, that's probably just me.
So, Dean Priest is doing very well, being equipped with attributes such as an "aloof dignity", "dreamy green eyes" and a "beautiful, musical and caressing voice". However, at the end of his conversation with 12-years-old Emily, he decides he's going to marry her in future. "I think I'll wait for you." At this point, Dean Priest dropped in my esteem from the top of the list of literary crushes right into nothingness.
I have this very deeply rooted aversion against grown men falling in love with girls who could be their daughters. While I don't think that Dean Priest is a pedophile (or, for that matter, Jane Austen's Col. Brandon or Mr. Knightley, who both fall in love with underage girls) and that his relationship to Emily is abusive, I do wonder what sort of man looks for a partner for life among little girls. It is not so much the relationship between the two characters I find disturbing but more the man himself. Because what makes me like a literary character is the fact that I can relate to them as I could relate to a real person. (This is why I like Rowling's novels so much: the characters feel real to me.) So while I feel about characters in novels just like I feel about people in RL, I apply the same criteria to them. If one of my friends, in his 20s or 30s, fell for a 12-years-old girl (like Emily, or Emma, who is 12 when 28-years-old Mr. Knightley falls in love with her) or with a 16-years-old girl, or even with a slightly older girl who's still at school and lives with her parents and leads a life so completely different from the lives my peer group leads, I would at least shake my head, be certainly disturbed and possibly alarmed.
So while I read and enjoyed Lolita (and fully understood what Humbert Humbert found so attractive about the girl), I find scenarios such as the one with Dean Priest or Col. Brandon's and Marianne's "romance" more disturbing. Because they are told in a way that indicates that it's perfectly normal to think of a schoolgirl as of one's future wife.
It is not so much the age difference that bugs me. (Two of my best friends are involved with/married to men twice their age.) It's more the difference in life styles and maturity levels. While I believe it's perfectly reasonable for a 50-years-old man to seriously fall in love with a woman in her late 20s, I don't think that a man in his late 30s should think of a 12-year-old as a potential partner for life. Again, if a friend of mine did, I would wonder whether he's not up to handling a woman his age, who is is equal in experience and maturity. And while I wouldn't necessarily think him a pervert (I can fully see the sexual appeal of young girls), I would think him weak. A grown man should know better than seduce underage girls just because he can and because they're willing (or unresisting). I don't underestimate schoolgirls; I was pretty calculating myself and got involved with far older men. But even then, I knew the relationships were not balanced and that I couldn't respect the men. I feel that if a man can't find his match among his equals, there is something seriously wrong with him.
This is incidentally the reason why I am not interested in Snarry fics. Not because I think it's necessarily an abusive relationship or because I think Snape is just blatantly forcing Harry - and the dynamics between them, all the hatred and aggression, is an aspect that strongly appeals to me - but because I lose a great part of my respect for Severus when he starts making out with Harry instead of focusing his energy on his equals. (What's wrong with Remus, eh?) Especially since Severus has experienced Harry as his student: there is a huge authority gap between them. Even if Snape is not actively abusive, he is the one with experience and in control - or should be. No matter how I look at this, whether Snape is actively in charge (thus abusing his position and manipulating Harry into a relationship), whether Snape merely follows his baser instincts (thus dehumanising himself) or whether Snape is seduced by Harry (thus giving up his control and giving himself over into Harry's hands), I lose a good part of my respect for the man.
This is merely an illustration of how my mind works and on why I am a dedicated supporter of relationships among equals. As to Snape/Black, while I can see them post Azkaban, I don't see them ending up together at school. In the narrative presence (well, before Sirius' death), they are both similarly fucked up, are both living under conditions they hate and haven't much control about their lives. They are equal in experience and situation (with regard to quantity, not quality).
But this is not supposed to be another pro-Snack essay. I originally intended to talk more about men's lips. Oh well. Maybe next time.
I need my bed now.
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no subject
Date: 2004-03-10 06:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-03-11 02:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-03-10 09:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-03-11 02:29 am (UTC)It's so sad. I could love Dean madly, but his obsession with Emily is disturbing, as is his jealousy. But he is very Remus-y indeed. That was the first thing I thought on reading his description.
no subject
Date: 2004-03-10 10:34 pm (UTC)I like Snarry. To read them was my portal to the fandom. I even wrote one myself. But I'm taking them always with a salt of grain, because mostly I can these stories only as thus: a fiction , especially when they are build around the student/teacher relationship. And I'm still waiting for the story, where Dumbledore finds out and kicks Snape out of Hogwards.
no subject
Date: 2004-03-11 02:40 am (UTC)Snack is about two equals with a very complicated interaction, which is a challenge to write.
Yes, this is so very true. This is what appeals to me about Snape/Black and why I prefer it to Sirius/Remus (whose relation is also complicated, but who've got their old friendship to fall upon). And I am a sucker for fights for dominance among equals.
a fiction , especially when they are build around the student/teacher relationship.
Intelectually, I know it's only fiction. (I do, honestly! They're not real!) But, as I said, I tend to relate to characters I love on a very personal level, and my gut reaction to a student/teacher relationship is irritation. The Snape/Harry dynamics as such appeals to me a lot, but I can't fully reconcile myself to their relationship.
And I'm still waiting for the story, where Dumbledore finds out and kicks Snape out of Hogwarts.
...Or where he doesn't because he still needs Snape's services.
no subject
Date: 2004-03-11 12:13 am (UTC)as a snarry addict, i still take most fics with a grain of salt... harry's characterization is usually aged up considerably, in maturity if not in physical age. it's a rare fic that preserves the animosity of their canon relationship while successfully extrapolating several years into the future, so i understand how that pairing could seem 'off' to you, as the vast majority of them require some suspension of disbelief.
but when it does work.... >:} I find that, emotionally, the two are equals. Severus is emotionally stunted. Harry could grow up to be a more understanding, less self-centered person. Moreover, in canon, I read their relationship as overflowing with sexual tension. Harry never seems to respect Severus as a teacher, just as Severus never treats Harry as just another student - their relationship is far, far more complex than that, and what we see in the 5th book is them taking the first grudging steps toward understanding and respecting each other as individuals. It will be a long way until they reach the type of dynamic (or even a variation of it) popular in canon, but I see them as definitely on that road.
So while I can't imagine Snarry happening while Harry is 15, or even 17, or... 20, I do see the very real possibility of it once Harry has matured and Snape has calmed down a bit. The issue of authority doesn't seem real to me at all, because it's something Harry doesn't respect and Snape loses anyway, as he's so out of control when it comes to his resentment of Harry.
As for Snack........ I'd believe it, but it's so unhappy!!! More like mutual rape. ;_; And if it were to be happy... I just don't think I'd buy it. They hate each other. Vs Snape and Harry, who each hate what the other represents, but, as we've begun to see, could respect and even like each other as people.
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Date: 2004-03-11 02:21 am (UTC)You know, Harry and Draco are hating each other as well and look what the fandom made of it. :) Now you might say: But Harry never send Draco to the Shrieking Shack, or vice versa. Right, but Draco could send Harry to Voldemort or rescue him from Voldemort as well. I mean, regardless what you are writing, in the very end it depends onto the story background. A happy Snack has, for example, no chance in time of OotP. The guys there are simply too fucked up for it and the happenings of PoA are still hanging heavily in the air. And the exceptions like An Ass of Himself are confirming the rule. Myself I don't like these mutual rape stories and neither the picture Bed of Nails from fielding. But these, as far I'm willing to admit, weren't meant to be nice. The best Snack's I read were future fics. You know, these ones, where the war ended, Sirius got free of the charges and full different circumstances are in charge.
At least - at least for myself - I'm a big believer of the power of forgiveness. In my life I was already twice very close to hate. In one case it was a person, in the other a whole nation. To hate is very easy: it suddenly makes the view of your world very clear and simple to follow the lines. But it is very dreadful and tiresome as well. And if you give yourself into too much it destroys you in the end. To forgive is the rescue of yourself, but simultaneously the most difficult thing ever. To do it I needed in the first place lots of strength, lot of time to change myself and my life. But in the end it was the best thing I have ever done.
Perhaps this is another reason for myself writing and liking Snack so much. These grudges and fights in the canon are getting tiresome more and more. And I'm afraid, that JKR will keep it so to the very end. I the second last chapter of GoF JKR set a wonderful promise for me, that in the next books Sirius and Severus will come to a sort of grudging acceptance. Nothing of that happened in OotP, which turned for me to be the biggest disapointment of the book. Bigger than Sirius' death, actually. So as you see, someone has to fix it. ;) I don't harbor any illusion that someone of the kinky crowd out there will ever buy it, but I have been always more idealistic than realistic and this is all fun fiction in the end. Because - and this is the probably the truest argument for myself writing Snack - in my head the guys are all disgustingly mushy hearts and flowers that I HAVE to write it down to get rid of this annoying image. :)
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Date: 2004-03-11 03:51 am (UTC)that in the next books Sirius and Severus will come to a sort of grudging acceptance.
I definitely saw the possibility, too. While I like the mutual hate, I think it is possible to make them come to an understanding of sorts about some things. In a way, their grudge parallels the development (or lack thereof) of Draco's character. When it was introduced, it had a lot of potential, which Rowling simply neglects. Fortunately, this is what the fandom is for - fixing the author's omissions ;-)
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Date: 2004-03-11 03:36 am (UTC)Snarry was only an example. I've got the same problem with Harry/Remus and Harry/Sirius. I would have the same problem if a friend of mine got himself a 17-years-old girlfriend. I might like her and understand what he finds so appealing about her after I got to learn her, but on first hearing the news, I would be irritated at the very least.
Vs Snape and Harry, who each hate what the other represents, but, as we've begun to see, could respect and even like each other as people.
That's interesting, because I had a conversation about Snape/Black with someone once, who said that Severus and Sirius each hate what the other represents. I guess it's all a matter of interpretation. Dynamics-wise, I can see Snape/Black just as I can see Snape/Harry, but it's got the advantage of being carried out among equals.
Like my aversion against Snape/Harry, my preference of Snape/Black is more instinctive than anything. (Though 'aversion' is a hard word. I don't hate the pairing.) I like the enemies-turned-lovers scenario. I like the aggressive sex and the insults and the hatred that turns into red-hot lust. And because we are in fanfiction here, I can believe or write a plot where Severus and Sirius come to an understanding of sorts, even though I can't see them as friends.
I am able to ignore the fact that there is no understanding (let alone sympathy) between Sirius and Severus rather than ignore the fact that Harry is 20 years younger than Snape. That's by no means an evaluation of Snarry in general. That's just me.
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Date: 2004-03-11 12:28 pm (UTC)Anyway. That's just me. :} WOO HOO for a diverse fandom.
And just to throw this out there - Harry/Remus squicks me beyond all reason; that strikes me as an abuse of trust. Harry never trusts Snape, but Remus, who constructs his survival upon getting people to like him, to think him harmless........ ghyaahhhhhh ~_@
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Date: 2004-03-11 01:35 pm (UTC)In my mind, there's too much real hate between them...
I fully agree that there is a lot of genuine and deeply rooted hatred between Sirius and Severus and that it borders on impossible to prevent them from killing each other let alone lead a civil conversation. But, before OotP was released, there was the distinct possibility for them to learn to accept each other. As
In any case, I think that the Snape/Black interaction is one aspect that should be tackled by fic writers, since Rowling ignores its potential. I would, eh?
As to Snape/Harry, I am not opposed to it and can see its potential well enough, even though it doesn't exactly tickle my fancy. I even hope that Rowling's going to exploit it further. Because as yet, she hasn't had Harry learn anything from his insight into Snape's mind: At the end of OotP, he falls back into his old behaviour pattern, blaming Snape for everything (i.e. Sirius' death), just like he used to blame him all throughout the years. I don't think it's so much Harry's fault; I am rather worried that Rowling will keep up this pattern just like she keeps up having Harry, Ron and Hermione humiliating Draco, Crabbe and Goyle at the end of each school year on the train.
Of course, Harry was beyond himself with hurt and despair at the end of OotP, and his reaction made some sort of sense, but what's the point then of showing a hesitant dawning of understanding between the characters only to make it all invalid by adapting old patterns over and over again? The characters of a novel must be allowed development and to learn from their experiences and mistakes. (And in spite of all that I said about relating to the characters as to real people, I am aware that they are only fictional.)
Sirius's egotism borders on sociopathic
Sirius is a strange mixture of absolute egoism on the one hand and just as absolute selflessness on the other - when it comes to protecting the ones he loves. He is completely unable to see anything positive in people he hates and anything negative in those he loves. What an annoying bastard. But hey - he's got charms! And yes, I am that shallow.
And, god help me, for all my cynicism, I am a romantic at heart.
Heh! Cynism is the protector of romantics, or so I heard. I want happy fanfiction, too. It's all about escapism, baby!
Harry/Remus squicks me beyond all reason; that strikes me as an abuse of trust.
Yeah, if anything, I prefer seeing Harry (or Hermione, for that matter) with Snape. Although I see the relationship as potentially abusive (especially in Hermione's case), it is more in character for Severus than Remus. I understand that many fans want to see Remus assuming the role of the father figure in Harry's life and become his confidant - without the burden of being his legal guardian, and thus being in the position of shagging Harry silly. But I don't see Remus being able and willing to allow real closeness. Harry trusts him, but he doesn't do
anythingmuch to deserve this trust.but Remus, who constructs his survival upon getting people to like him, to think him harmless...
Fucking manipulative werewolf. He would hurt Harry more than Severus ever could, because with Severus, Harry is on his guard. All my rambling on abusive student/teacher relationships applies even more to Remus/Harry than Harry/Snape. But again, this doesn's stop me from reading Remus/Harry fics and enjoying the well-written ones.
no subject
Date: 2004-03-11 03:40 pm (UTC)i guess i doubt that snape and sirius could ever manage anything beyond grudging acceptance, in the best of circumstances... but hey, that's me. :}
and as for harry at the end of ootp - i do slightly disagree. i think that he's falling back on his blaming of snape as a defense because of his own guilt about sirius's death; he just can't handle that and the revelations about his parents and his empathy with snape all at once... he retreats; he lashes out. but i firmly believe that the understanding is still there, under the surface, and their relationship will become even more... entangled... in future books.
could swear i had one more thing to say...... doo de doo...... er, i'm happy to say that i don't see harry trusting anyone anytime soon, last of all remus. note that he still calls him Lupin in his mind, and the lack of interaction between those two in general. even if harry doesn't consciously think it, i believe he resents lupin's deliberate non-involvement in his life.
Yay sirius!!! i just finished this cheesy historical adventure with a main character that reminded me of him - charming, brilliant, brave, ruthless. Vendetta in Spain, if you're interested, but be warned - it's very cheesy. kind of like if sirius wrote a novel, subtitled "I Am So Cool." ^_^
grrr.... know i had something more to say..... but maybe not. oh well.
vive la escapism!!!!!
no subject
Date: 2004-03-13 05:45 am (UTC)Yes, I fully agree here. But - and this is what I mean by saying he falls back into the old patterns - Rowling doesn't let him change with respect to Snape. Possibly not yet. Possibly never. However, the possibility that there is understanding for Snape dawning in Harry is not what Rowling shows us - she merely indicates it, providing the basis for an understaning, but it's the fandom which carries the idea further.
This is exactly the situation I'd compare with what happened with Sirius and Severus: there was definitely potential at the end of GoF for their mutual hatred to subside. "You're both on the same side now" and all this. They've been both fucked by life and in GoF their both lives were at a turning point. However, Rowling didn't explore this potential. I fear, she might neglect Harry and Snape, too.
last of all remus. note that he still calls him Lupin in his mind, and the lack of interaction between those two in general.
There is not much interaction, but Harry instinctively refers to Remus' guidance at the beginning of OotP. Okay, this might be because between Mad-Eye Moody and a bunch of completely strangers, Lupin is the lesser evil, but poor Harry's entire life is basically all about choosing lesser evils... I don't think Rowling will have Remus take over the part of Harry's father figure, but it is certainly something a part of the fandom wishes for.
charming, brilliant, brave, ruthless. [...] kind of like if sirius wrote a novel, subtitled "I Am So Cool." ^_^
Yay! Uber-cool!Sirius! He's so irresistible!
no subject
Date: 2004-03-13 06:48 am (UTC)Ooh! Good point! This just goes to show how preferred pairings can influence a person. I'd just sort of shoved that line to the back of my mind. ...Not that I'm saying I could imagine them jumping into bed now, but I do have a much clearer idea of the fact that... some progress might have been made... I guess part of it is that I just like them hating each other a lot. It's a nice outlet... "blah blah blah life sucks, but hey, at least i can still fantasize about (hexing snape/poisoning black)." and i guess in happy fluff land there would be no real intention to ever carry it through... whereas, in canon, they do want to murder each other. which is powerful. (typing before i've made up my mind again - ok, think break.)
... doo de doo ...
hmmmmmm..... i guess that's what my block is. snape's capacity for hatred is so great. i don't think he really hates harry, not the real non-james harry... annoyed in all directions by him, certainly, but not the boiling hatred he has for his peers who wronged him. so i can work with that, but i wouldn't know how to go about tackling this cauldron of ire that stands between him and black. i mean, i can see black using snape, raping him, no problem. and i can see snape snapping and raping black in a fit of dementia (because for him it would be a loss of control; black would just torture him for the hell of it). and then repurcussions of that, maybe, but as for just stepping down.... what could make them do that... wahhhh. brain boggling.
it's like everthing about them clashes - their personalities hate each other, even if snape wasn't the personification of sirius's family, even if sirius wasn't the personification of arrogance and charisma.
and this really makes me want to work james into this discussion... because i hate to leave james out. i love james and sirius; they're so... complementary. the perfect best friends. they hate snape in slightly different ways, but they each hate him so, so much, and snape hates them individually in return.
and then remus and peter and.... ok; if i start going into everyone snape hates, it will never end.
no subject
Date: 2004-03-11 03:50 pm (UTC)The way Rowling handled the Snape/Black dynamics in OotP reminds me of the way she handles Draco: There is definitely potential for development of interaction/character, but she ignores it completely.
one of the things that consistently disturbs me about rowling is her seeming identification with dumbledore's "morality," ie Slytherins Are Bad (with maybe one exception... but even snape's iffy), Gryffindors Are Good (ignore the tyrants behind the curtain, please). Though, given the way she developed Snape and the marauders in OotP, she seems to be blatantly contradicting her own rule. ~_~ damn the woman and her ambiguity... I absolutely agree that Draco has a huge wealth of potential... Hell, I like to think that Lucius Malfoy is sort of the classier version of Sirius Black - doing what has to be done to serve his own interests and the interests of the ones he loves, no such thing as right or wrong. I don't know I don't know.... In interviews JKR makes me want to throttle her, but then OotP came along and completely jived with the characterizations if not the situations I had imagined... And, remember, this is all Harry's POV. I think it would take a hell of a lot for him to see Draco as anything other than a snobbish bully, and as Harry isn't very imaginative on his own and doesn't have the benefit of breaking into the other boy's mind...
I want to start waving banners. SUPPORT SLYTHERIN! ...Why am I only interested in fictional politics...?
*must avoid panic attacks about upcoming books*
no subject
Date: 2004-03-13 06:08 am (UTC)Yes! Definitely! The way she established Dumbledore annoys the hell out of me. I wasn't shocked by Sirius' and James' behaviour in OotP, though, because we've always known about Sirius that he had this violent streak, so it was all very much IC. I also think that Sirius, Remus and Severus are excellently executed as ambiguous characters. But Dumbledore isn't. In my opinion, Rowling didn't manage to make him a three-dimensional character, even though she tried to give him ambiguity, because his character gives the impression that he is supposed to be the main moral instance.
As to Draco - I think by now, Rowling could have fleshed him out a bit. She even managed to do so with Dudley and Petunia - and they have never seemed to have half the potential of Draco.
I was listening to the OotP audiobook last night and realised that what interests me most about the upcoming books is how Rowling's going to develop Dudley and Petunia...
And whether she will kill off Remus *whines*no subject
Date: 2004-03-13 06:33 am (UTC)I agree. I hate having to rely so much on speculation... I want some confirmation, damn it! Draco is complex and sympathetic!!!
I was listening to the OotP audiobook last night and realised that what interests me most about the upcoming books is how Rowling's going to develop Dudley and Petunia...
Well she did say that we're going to know what Dudley's Worst Memory is (yaaayyy!!!!! ...here's hoping it' doesn't involve aunt marge). so, yes, i think she definitely has some development in store for them...
And whether she will kill off Remus *whines*
Nahhhhhhhh..... Remus suffers too prettily. >:} His destiny is to go on and on losing people, forever, trudging along life's roads in self-imposed stoicism and misery. ...Well if I were writing the story... I had convinced myself she was going to kill off Snape!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;_; But now I'm beginning to dip my toes back into tantalizing Harry-death scenerios.......
And as for Dumbledore... I'm holding my breath. I'm going to wait for the very end and hope hope hope that eventually he'll make some sort of sense.
no subject
Date: 2004-04-24 12:54 pm (UTC)To be fair, JKR has shown Dumbledore as a 3-d character- it is just that Harry has not absorbed that it, and so, we do not get thenuances until a second reading.
This man, this great wizard is also a wily one- or so he thinks. Does it not strike you that:
1) He commits an error of trust by not telling Harry what he needs to know
2) Depsite being comnsidered 'great' he has enough political enemies- or people who plain resent him- to be monitored by the Minstry toady and remobed from office? That editorials make fun of him in the paper?
3) That he treats his one oof his top teachers, a man who would proabably open a vein for him, like shit(emotionally, that is)
4) That he allowed his own knowledge of how Sirius could be (the bullying, the Shrieking Shack, amongst many others, I am sure)to allow this poor man to rot in prison, instead of speaking up for him (as he did for Severus)or calling for a trial
5) Running an viligante Order- above and beyond the Ministry- and losing many of his young people in the process.
Yes, JKR has set Dumbledore up to be kind, warm,crafty, clever jovial, etc. But she has also shown, in bits and pieces, that Dumbledore is capable of vainglorious actions, arrogance, emotinal distancing and not giving trust.
Does that make you feel better:-)?
no subject
Date: 2004-04-24 02:24 pm (UTC)I know she did; but from all I know about her view on Dumbledore, she thinks he is a good person.
My problem with Dumbledore is that I don't really see him as a character. He was established as a plot device, necessary to explain the background and to facilitate the solution at the end of each novel, which is a popular method in many children books. We've never seen him do anything great. Rowling told us he was great - e.g. via Hagrid. In the early novels, Harry's (and everyone's) trust in Dumbledore always seemed a bit off, because he never prevented any horrible stuff from happening; he merely arrived at the end, like clockwork, and offered a neat summary, a life lesson and a conclusion so that the author could finish the book without bothering with loose threads. In OotP, Rowling tried to flesh him out, but for me, it didn't work. I've always perceived D. as a plot device, a voice ex machina, and I don't buy his transition into a 3D character. This is, of course, merely my impression of Dumbledore and I know that the majority don't see him like that.
The morality issue in general is one that interests me a lot. I am pretty sure from all that is known from her interviews that Rowling has established Dumbledore as a highly moral character and as the major moral instance. In OotP, he admits he has failed, but it is caused by his love for Harry - a highly honourable notion. His former failures and blunders are not even mentioned.
There are several examples that particularly annoy me: In CoS, after the final fight, Harry confides in D. his worries he might be a Slytherin, but instead of pointing out that Slytherin is just a house like the others, D. says that only a true Griffindor could have pulled out the sword etc. I would gladly accept that this is merely an indication that D. is fallible after all, but from all that we've seen so far: Draco's lack of characterisation, the Slytherins as the House of Evil, I fear that D. speaks the autor's mind. Especially since he concludes his speech with the moral lesson that it is our choices that make us what we truly are, which is clearly Rowling speaking.
In GoF, not only D. knows about the dragons in the first task, but also (parts) of his staff, while Mme Maxime and Karkaroff are considered (and prove themselves) as not trustworthy. Why? Because they're foreigners? Because they're not Dumbledore? They've got exactly the same status as he has, being Heads of schools and judges. Again, I think this is the author's fault; she needs the others not to know, and having D. around means being able to explain plot holes away.
So all these little things make me think that Dumbledore, indeed, is established as the voice of truth and morality. And while I gladly accept the deconstruction of James, Sirius and Remus, who have morphed in very 3D characters, D. just doesn't work for me. (Although from all I know, Rowling thinks Sirius is a *good* person, too.)
(purely personal impression, as always *g*)
no subject
Date: 2004-03-11 07:04 am (UTC)At any rate, Dean appealed to me for many more paragraphs than he did for you. I didn't cast him aside until the third book or so, when he started undermining Emily's writing pursuits because he was jealous of her ability and what he saw to be her future success. I'm fascinated by the (non-pedophilic) twistedness of character that compels "damaged" men to be drawn to younger would-be partners- whether it's because they think they can't get/don't deserve someone in their own peer group, or because they want to relive a wretched youth through/with that young person they've attached themselves to.
As for liking Snarry, it's the whole badly-described rationale above plus a big ol' student/teacher kink. I blame the whole thing on a very Dean-like teacher (no hunchback, but a very bad limp! and an acidness of tongue! and thin lips!) I obsessed over for most of my teen years. I'll probably do an about-face when my own daughter hits puberty in a few years.
no subject
Date: 2004-03-11 08:34 am (UTC)Besides that kindred spirit stuff over things like cloud-watching and poetry, it was the fact that Emily immediately accepted him
I can't say I found Dean exactly creepy - not until he started being blatantly territorial and obsessive and jealous - because his relationship to Emily was never sexual when she was a young girl. But I don't understand the concept of devoting one's entire life to waiting for someone. Dean, a grown-up man with a considerable life experience, dedicates himself to waiting for a girl whose father he used to be friends with at college. This is something I find very off-putting. It is therefore not so much the concept of being attracted to a minor (something I can understand) but the fact that his life's pursuits are now revolving around this little girl.
Actually, this is a major aspect of my aversion against the adult/minor relationships that I completely forgot to mention in my post. (It was late last night when I wrote it.) When an adult falls in love with an underage girl and decides to not ignore this as a temporary infatuation, he can either act on his feelings and try to seduce her, or wait until she is of age and seduce her then. The first alternative has definitely an abusive connotation. Although I, of all people, am more than ready to admit that young girls are manipulative and calculating in their own rights. But, even thought they might want it, they are not fully aware of what exactly it is they want. I am not objecting against the relationship from the girl's point of view, though. If she thinks that's what she wants - let her go for it. How else can she gain experience?
Now, as to the waiting for someone: I don't like the idea of dedicating my life to the pursuit of one other person, and I definitely don't like the idea of someone else waiting for many years for me to be finally his. If some former teacher (or even a former school mate) of mine approached me with the words that he fell for me 15 years ago and has been biding his time all these years, I would be seriously freaked out and consider him an obsessive pervert.
This is, incidentally, the reason why I don't like Sirius/Remus reunion fics that much. I don't like the idea that someone (Remus) spent 15 years of their life waiting for their love to come back. I know that this is considered as tragically romantic by many, but I find it disturbing.
But I digress.
I'm fascinated by the (non-pedophilic) twistedness of character that compels "damaged" men to be drawn to younger would-be partners
I do think such a character is fascinating, but it's not a good sort of fascination. I am certainly fascinated by the character of Humbert Humbert in Lolita. He is actually a good example, because he illustrates exactly what I mean: Humbert doesn't force Lolita into the relationship. He manipulates her into it, but she is quite the manipulator herself, so there is a balance of sorts. I fully understand his desire for her, too, and I certainly understand her desire for a grown-up, experienced man who can show her the world, life and love. And from the young girl's point of view, I can approve of it. I wouldn't talk out a 17-years-old girl from hitting on a 30-years-old guy, but I would vice versa. Because I find is degrading for the man to go after a girl who's not his equal, but I do find it upgrading for the girl to pursuit a man who's her superior.
plus a big ol' student/ teacher kink.
See? I don't have a student/teacher kink. I've never even had a crush on a teacher. That's scarred me for life *g* I've always been very aware of certain social boundaries, especially those within hierarchical structures. It is not a moral thing, I don't think. I am open for all sorts of kinky relationships among consenting adults with similar levels of experience and maturity. I would shag my flat mate, my best friend's boyfriend and my brother's girlfriend, but I wouldn't shag my professor, my boss or my Dad's best friend. Weird, eh?
I'll probably do an about-face when my own daughter hits puberty in a few years.
Yeah, that's likely to change your point of view all right! *g*
no subject
Date: 2004-03-11 08:49 am (UTC)I would definitely think that of a modern man -- for characters in historical fiction, well, woman were expected to be married by 25, and in the Austen novels, by the end of their Season, which usually took place when they were between 16-18. There weren't many woman of similar age for bachelors *to* court, so it doesn't bother me as badly as it would if they were modern stories.
but because I lose a great part of my respect for Severus when he starts making out with Harry instead of focusing his energy on his equals.
I really appreciate the point, and though I do enjoy Snarry fics (mainly because with as many as there are out there, some of the have to be good just on the numbers!), I actually like this dynamic 'inequality of authority' in Snape/Dumbledore fics! But that pairing is 1) much rarer than Snape/Harry, and 2) for some reason doesn't tend to get into the potential for abuse (if not actuality of it)that would be endemic in a relationship between Snape and Dumbledore.
no subject
Date: 2004-03-11 09:24 am (UTC)I actually like this dynamic 'inequality of authority' in Snape/Dumbledore fics!
I hardly ever read Snape/Dumbledore simply because I don't find Dumbledore sex appealing. Plus, I've got issues with Dumbledore's character. Not as in 'Dumbledore's evil' but more as in 'is Dumbledore a real character or a plot device used for explaining away plot holes'. But that's a different topic entirely.
But, you know, we all get off on different pairings and constellations. I am not much interested in exploring the power shifts and possible abuses resulting therefrom in Snape/Harry, Lucius/Draco and Dumbledore/anyone fics. However, the advantage I see in Snape/Dumbledore as opposed to Snape/Harry is that we know Snape as an adult, whereas we know Harry as a teenager. And while fic authors write Snape as a teenager and Harry as an adult, in my head, there is always the image of canon!Snape and canon!Harry, and I consider their fanfiction selves as an extrapolation of their canonical selves. For some reason, I find the manipulation of adult characters less disturbing than that of minors. But I am really no expert on Snape/Dumbledore dynamics.
I don't think my distinctions make much sense on a logical, rational level. They are merely my attempts to explain how I feel about the characters' interactions, and just like the likes and dislikes of single characters, they are highly subjective and not applicable to other readers.
because i'm spamming your inbox today...
Date: 2004-03-13 01:27 pm (UTC)In, for example, England's Regency period, men and women could barely come into contact with each other in such a way to create a meaningful relationship before marriage. thus, love at first sight or only after a couple of chaperoned conversations would have been the norm. moreover, the simple amount of eligible ladies and gentlemen would have been severely limited for a particular age group, even considering the age differences within couples. so if an inteligent man met a charming girl whom he might reasonably expect to grow into a charming young lady and suitable wife, it would make a lot of sense to stake his claim early. it doesn't have to mean that he's erotically obsessed by her.. or even if he is erotically obsessed by her, it's not like he can get to know her to dispell the fantasy, or would want to. and the spheres of the sexes were so disparate anyway, age wouldn't have made much difference. the ideal woman of any age was seen as childlike, and they had the skull-measurements to prove it. ~_~
all of a sudden i've found myself much more sympathetic to all those ridiculous lovers who lost their hearts without a single word spoken, relationships based on poetry..... XP
Re: because i'm spamming your inbox today...
Date: 2004-03-14 05:46 am (UTC)Intelectually, I do understand that much of what I am put off by can be explained by the historical context. But my aversion is a rather instinctive one anyway.
As to the Emily series, they're set in the 1920s, and the girl is pretty independend and hangs around with boys a lot. The man turns out truly creepy after a while, getting all possessive and jealous and whatnot. And such things really freak me out.
the ideal woman of any age was seen as childlike, and they had the skull-measurements to prove it. ~_~
Ah yes. And psychological maturity was not to be expected since women had no soul anyway.
Re: because i'm spamming your inbox today...
Date: 2004-03-14 06:11 am (UTC)I do know exactly what you mean about instinctive aversion to dependenct and/or manipulative relationships. The Snape/Harry relationship in my head doesn't fall under those terms, but it sounds like the exact reason the mere contemplation of Snape/Dumbledore, for example, makes me want to throw up. I can't imagine a scenario in which they can approach each other as equals - Snape will always owe something, in one or both of their minds. It's also the reason Tom/Dumbledore can be such an interesting pairing, as the manipulation comes from both sides, there are moral ambiguities both ways... And Snape/Black, sadly, I can't imagine while....
[it sounds like someone's being possessed by the devil outside my door; sometimes i hate living in university housing...]
sorry. Snape/Black. yes, as I've mentioned, it just doesn't work for me without some sort of severe mental trauma on Snape's part... And I just don't want to read that! ;_; Moreover, if the trauma weren't there, I probably wouldn't find the story believable.
...Come to think of it, the Snape/Black dynamic I envision is similar to my major objection to Harry/Draco. I don't want Draco obsessed with Harry to the degree that he has to fuck him, in hatred or love or... anything. I want Draco to be able to escape his various roles as Malfoy heir, junior Death Eater, Potter nemesis... The greatest breakthrough for him, I think, would be leaving it all behind. The greatest freedom would be to simply not give a damn. The world does not revolve around Harry Potter.
Re: because i'm spamming your inbox today...
Date: 2004-03-14 07:05 am (UTC)And as
Snape/Black. yes, as I've mentioned, it just doesn't work for me without some sort of severe mental trauma on Snape's part...
Yes, that's why for me, Snape/Black works only when set in the narrative presence, when Sirius is just as vulnerable and messed up and traumatised as Severus and when Severus is in a stronger position than Sirius - by being free to come and go as he pleases, for example. I don't like seeing my men abusing each other, seeing as life's abused them more than enough!
I don't want Draco obsessed with Harry to the degree that he has to fuck him, in hatred or love or... anything.
Oh no, I hate Draco obesessing about Harry. But I'm not much into the obsessing-over-somebody scenarios in general. In fact, I hate 'em. This brings me nicely to my original topic: the fact that older men fall so deeply for young girls that they have their lives revolve around the girls scares me. But it would scare me also if both partners were the same age, only a grown woman is capable to reflect about the whole affair and escape it if necessary.
But I've got a very disturbed view on where obsession begins. In RL, I am highly irritated when someone has their life centre around one other person, and if this person in the centre happend to be me - well, I'm so out of there. (Regardless whether it's a positive or negative obsession, i.e. love or hate.)
I've never liked Draco, not because he is Evil (haha!), but because he is unable to leave Harry alone. What I associate with Draco is his tugging along after Harry to catch his attention with silly little tauntings (if Harry was a girl, he'd be pulling her pigtails) and whining he'd "tell Father". That's just so... pitiful. I could like Draco as a character, though, if Rowling gave him some more depth. *sighs*
The greatest breakthrough for him, I think, would be leaving it all behind. The greatest freedom would be to simply not give a damn. The world does not revolve around Harry Potter.
Definitely. I'd like him to leave it all behind. Alas, I think from both the development in the novels so far and from what Rowling says in the interviews (she's surprised about Draco's popularity) that the boy is doomed to remaining the nemesis-wannabe and comic relief of sorts, being hit by some nasty hex or other at the end of each novel.