On Ginny

[donnaimmaculata]

Apparently, there are those who say that Harry only went for Ginny because she's Lily II. Regardless on whether or not this is true - would that be that bad if the boy fell in love with a girl who reminded him - if only superficially - of his mother? I know that I tend to go for boys who have something in common with my father. I'm not attracted to my father at all, but I've read a silly little poem he wrote in my diary when I was ten recently, and I realised that I could so fall for a man who writes like that. And then I thought, OMG, it's my father! And: But the poem's so cute and witty!

What I'm trying to say is that there's nothing wrong with being attracted to someone because there are certain characteristics about them which remind you of your parents. Unless there's something seriously wrong with me, which I wouldn't quite rule out.

I've always liked Ginny. She's the only female character in the novels who's ever showed a sense of humour. Her newly developed ability of being entertaining is a logical extrapolation of her capability of laughing at silly things, which she had shown from the very beginning. She's unnecessarily bitchy? Growing up at Molly's daughter, she had to find some way to deal with her pent-up frustrations.

Comments

[shocolate.livejournal.com]

Yup, yup.

Hubby is very like my dad, I suppose.

I mean, if you hate your father, the same qualities in a boy will put you off, won't they?

I always thought Ginny was half-Roon and half-twins - which is very attractive!

[fraught.livejournal.com]

She's unnecessarily bitchy? Growing up at Molly's daughter, she had to find some way to deal with her pent-up frustrations.

Yes, but I don't have to like it. She annoys me. A lot.

[ptyx.livejournal.com]

Hm, my problem is not that she is Lily, it that both are JKR... (= Mary Sues)

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Personally, I don't get the whole Mary-Sue debate, because it's impossible to pin down what makes a character a Mary-Sue and also to give an exact definition on what a Mary-Sue really is. IMO, anyway.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm not saying that anyone has to like Ginny, just because I do. I think there are quite a few characters that I like which are heartily disliked in fandom. Ginny just so happens to not annoy me.

[ptyx.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean. Maybe what I'm trying to say is that Ginny is too cool and Lily is too perfect, and then I can't identify myself with them.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Despite the fact that she's the one character in canon I really can't stand ;-), I don't think it's really that she reminds Harry of his mother superficially--if anything it's that he sort of automatically goes for the same qualities his father went for in his mother. Not superficial qualities, but more things that he values. He doesn't know his mother at all, so there's only so much he can look for of her in another person.

[a-t-rain.livejournal.com]

In what way? Which characteristics do they share with JKR?

If anything, I thought Hermione was the character JKR based on her younger self.

[ptyx.livejournal.com]

Her sense of humour, her courage, the colour of her hair. As for Mary Sueism, she's the one who's going to win the hero; she has always loved him; she's his soul twin.

I do believe JKR has put a lot of herself into Hermione in the first books, but not in HBP.

[ptyx.livejournal.com]

Oh, and she's intelligent and smart too, of course.

[author-by-night.livejournal.com]

We don't even know that Ginny looks like Lily. We know they both have red hair - like the rest of Ginny's family, Marietta Edgecome, and younger Dumbledore.

[cutecoati.livejournal.com]

Growing up at Molly's daughter, she had to find some way to deal with her pent-up frustrations.

You do have a point here ;-))

I've to admit that I absolutely don't like Ginny (besides, I think she went through a serious personality change between Books 4 and 5, from the little mousy, shy, blushing girl to Miz Suuuupercoooool) - but what really annoys me is that we're supposed to like her (that's maybe the reason why I like Draco... *whistles*): I can see her behaviour as the realistic conduct of a 15 year old girl, a girl without any manners... what if Pansy behaved like that, she would be the nasty, rude, abusive and omg ebil bitch!

I think the whole Ginny = Lily thing has been exagerated a little bit (also in HBP, though...), as sistermagpie already said, Harry knows next to nothing about his mother (but it is not generally a bad thing being attracted to the same type!:).

[a-t-rain.livejournal.com]

As for Mary Sueism, she's the one who's going to win the hero; she has always loved him; she's his soul twin.

See, this is why I have big problems with the label "Mary Sue" when it's applied to canon characters. To me, a Mary Sue is a character who disturbs the balance of the canon universe and usurps roles that rightfully belong to the canon characters. It would be reasonable to apply this label to an OC who ended up defeating Voldemort, for example, because that's Harry's job, but that doesn't make Harry himself a Stu if he defeats Voldemort.

Similarly, I think you could make a good argument that an OC who ends up with Harry is a Mary Sue -- because there's already a canon character who fills that role, and you have to warp the canon to fit a different character into it. But this argument doesn't apply to Ginny, because she's supposed to be there. Being Harry's love interest is her job in the text. (And in order for her to do that job properly, she has to have qualities that attract him. The story wouldn't be improved if JKR left these qualities out; instead, readers would be left wondering what he saw in her.)

None of this means that readers have to like her or identify with her -- I do happen to like her, but I can certainly sympathize with people who dislike her because she's a brat to Ron, or because she went out with Michael and Dean even though she knew she liked Harry better and then broke up with them for trivial reasons. But I don't understand the reasoning behind labeling her a "Mary Sue" or disliking her because of her good qualities.

[froda-baggins.livejournal.com]

I like Ginny too. I think she's funny. Good to know someone else does. It's so difficult to find other people who do.

[ptyx.livejournal.com]

I think there are many different interpretations of what a Mary Sue is, and that's one of the reasons why Donna Immaculata said she doesn't get the Mary Sue debate. I have seen this word applied to many aspects, from author insertion to the infalibility of the character. I don't want to pursue this discussion because I think we are dealing with very imprecise definitions.

As for Ginny, she doesn't interest me as a character precisely because of her *coolness*.

[gmth.livejournal.com]

To me, a Mary Sue is a character who disturbs the balance of the canon universe and usurps roles that rightfully belong to the canon characters.

Yes, yes, and yes. Which is why I don't believe you can ever look at a canon character and call her a Mary Stu. You put it very eloquenty. Mary Sues are for fan-created works only, never ever for canon.

[gmth.livejournal.com]

That should, of course, read "Mary Sue" in the first sentence, not Stu. *headdesk*

[gmth.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's just Molly's influence that makes Ginny bithcy. I think it's more likely growing up as the only girl in a family of boys, as well as being the youngest. I am the youngest and only girl in my family, and I know from experience that sometimes you have to be tough and yeah, a bitch if you're going to get noticed and be taken seriously. Otherwise your brothers are likely to walk all over you. I identify a lot with Ginny... which actually kind of sucks because I don't particularly like her. But I can understand why she is the way she is.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

See, I believe exactly the opposite. You can definitely have Mary Sues in canon--sometimes they're even done in such a way that it doesn't matter they're a Mary Sue. They can even upset the balance of canon, despite being in canon. I loved reading somethng where apparently an editor of Madeleine L'Engle criticized her character in exactly those terms--X is always right, she lectures even adults on right and wrong, everyone loves her but she's completely insufferable. Luckily L'Engle changed this, but it still seems like the criticism is the same--you've written a Mary Sue here, and we don't like her!:-) So I tend to think of them as canon creations first with the fanfic version just being a secondary one, one that's probably more easily spotted and abused.

[arseaboutface.livejournal.com]

Dude. Pansy -is- a nasty rude, abuseive and omg ebil bitch.

[souliesoul.livejournal.com]

Hear, hear!

[quivo.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you stood up for this - honestly, the way people hate on Ginny is just overdone - I like her bitchy and mouthy. And the reason she seemingly underwent a "omg total change" between books four and five is because Harry got to know her better. She was barely in the books otherwise, so I don't see how people decided she was a total wuss before book five...

I sort of understand why people would go for Draco and Pansy and so on, but, looking at it realistically, those are two rather nasty pieces of work. Which isn't to say that Harry himself can't be a nasty little boy when he puts his mind to it, but just that it's a bit unrealistic for people to dislike seeing the same qualities in one character (e.g. Ginny) that they like in other characters (e.g. Draco).

But hell, what do I know.

[mafdet.livejournal.com]

Hm, my problem is not that she is Lily, it that both are JKR...

And you know this how?

[mafdet.livejournal.com]

Well, that's just your opinion. You don't like the characters, fine. That doesn't mean that they are a) badly written or b) unappealing to everyone. Writers aren't there just to cater to you.

[mafdet.livejournal.com]

Her sense of humour, her courage, the colour of her hair.

That's rather presumptuous, don't you think? JKR has a public persona, we don't really know what her sense of humor is like, nor how courageous she is. She said she "admires" courage, but that's as far as it goes. And as for her hair - I've seen it blonde as well as red. I guess that makes the Malfoys her self-inserts, too.