What's a Mary Sue?

[donnaimmaculata]

No, honestly. I entered aldalindil's It's All Been Done Fest with the pairing Lupin/OFC. Now, I consider all OFCs whose major (or sole) purpose is to shag the male character the author finds attractive a Mary Sue, regardless of how well she's written. I mean, no-one writes an OFC who ends up with Hagrid, right? They all get their chance with Snape/Black/Lupin/Harry/Draco. I don't mind such Mary Sues, either. I have read and enjoyed very well written ones, but still, following the definition of Mary Sue = author's self insert, I do think they are Mary Sues.

So what do you think? Does Mary Sue refer merely to half-elven, half-unicorn American transfer student with super special mega powers and a dark secret? Or is every OFC who shags the author's crush a Mary Sue?


And here, gacked from everyone and their sister, the Hottest Pairings Ever:

Hottest "Gods I hate you, let's shag NOW!" pairing:	Snape/Black
Hottest "All about teh Luff" pairing:	Padfoot/Crookshanks
Hottest "Kinky beyond reason" pairing:	Voldemort/Trevor
Hottest "This is so very sick but I LOVE it" pairing:	Dobby/Draco
Hottest "OMFG this is so illegal" pairing:	Dudley/Aunt Marge
Hottest "Master and Slave" pairing:	Albus/Argus
Hottest "Morally ambiguous" pairing:	Bill/Ginny
Hottest "So effing CLICHE, but I don't care" pairing:	Harry/Ginny
Hottest "Father and Son bonding taken to the next level" pairing:	Tom Riddle Sen./Tom Riddle Jr.
Hottest Threesome pairing:	Sirius/Severus/Remus
Hottest "The more the merrier" pairing (orgy):	Sirius/Severus/Remus/Bill/Kingsley
Hottest "We're just friends that happen to shag" pairing:	Sirius/Remus
Hottest "WTF that would NEVER happen" pairing:	Minerva/Sirius
Hottest "First Time" pairing:	Sirius/Harry
Hottest "They're both so deliciously evil" pairing:	Bellatrix/Mrs. Black

The Harry Potterverse Pairings Survey brought to you by BZOINK!

I actually read the Trevor/Voldemort one. It makes sense. Really.

Comments

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

I actually read the Trevor/Voldemort one. It makes sense. Really.

I think I did, too. Voldemort had no body so he took possession of some lady-frog? And I think a mouse or rat was telling the story?

(Heh, imagine if there were more than one Trevor/Voldemort story out there!)

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Yep. That's the one.

I found the fic following a link on your LJ, so it's small wonder you read it too. I wonder whether there are more Trevor fics, though.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

I haven't found any, but with all the rare-pairing going on I bet there will be more soon.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Let's hope you're right. I like Trevor. He deserves some fun.

A Beastialisty Fuh-Q Fest would be fun, too. What with all the sentient beasts and beings hanging around the HP world.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

You know, that would be fun, yeah. There are so many options for it, including tame things (like Lupin/Black) for the more squickish.

By the way, whatever cluster you're on must be having problems right now. Darned thing acts like it's not posting my comments, when sometimes they really go through. So sorry for any double-comment-posting!

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Sirius and Remus were the ones I thought of, too, as the, um, tamer alternative to fully-fledged toad action.

Yeah, LJ keeps telling me connection closed when I try posting, but it posts nevertheless. Hm. I hope it'll fix itself.

[frankie-lee.livejournal.com]

The definition of a Mary Sue.

Well, I think Mary Sues happen whenever the author puts an obvious charicature of themselves into a story, whether or not it grows to the rediculous proportions of a (in your words) half-elven, half-unicorn American transfer student with super special mega powers and a dark secret.

BUT, if you just give your characters bits of your personality, or perhaps stick them in a situation you've been in yourself, that doesn't count as a Mary Sue.

(Er, I'd kicked around the idea of writing a gritty, brutally unflattering, chemical/pulp fiction Mary Sue merely to parody the typical stories, but haven't gotten around to it yet.)


I actually read the Trevor/Voldemort one. It makes sense. Really.

Okay... I'm squicked, which means curious. Where?

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

I'd kicked around the idea of writing a gritty, brutally unflattering, chemical/pulp fiction Mary Sue merely to parody the typical stories, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

Oh, you've got to do it. Mary Sue parodies are such fun, especially for the author. Very cathartic *g*

As to the Mary Sue definitions, there are so many different views floating around. There are readers, after all, who consider Ginny or Tonks Mary Sue stereotypes. But, as I said, I don't mind whether or not a character fits the Mary Sue definition or not, as though as the story as a whole is enjoyably written.

The Trevor/Voldemort fic is here:

http://www.astronomytower.org/authors/rj1981/MBWHHES.html

It's called The Most Beautiful Warts He's Ever Seen, and the idea is quite original, I must say.

[frankie-lee.livejournal.com]

The Most Beautiful Warts He's Ever Seen

I asked for it. You're right, it was original. Woog...

consider Ginny or Tonks Mary Sue stereotypes

Yes, but are they (neither character being half-elven etc.) a direct characture of the author? A stereotype is a stereotype is a two-dimensional character, but a Mary Sue is... never mind, I've already said.

I've never thought of them as Mary Sues, only as not having enough screen-time to be fully developed.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

I asked for it. You're right, it was original. Woog...

Heh! The fandom needs fresh ideas.

I've never thought of them as Mary Sues, only as not having enough screen-time to be fully developed.

Neither have I. But I know there are people who have. So that's basically what I mean - there are countless interpretations of Mary Sues. Original characters alongside fanfic OFCs are outed as Mary Sues all over the place. I was curious what my flist thinks about it.

[frankie-lee.livejournal.com]

I was curious what my flist thinks about it.

Am off to review the replies on your entry. BTW, sorry about the multiple posts-- I've just deleted the extras.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

No problem about the multiple posts. LJ kept giving me the 'connection closed' warning despite posting comments all night *sighs and hopes it'll fix itself*

[marksykins.livejournal.com]

Voldemort/Trevor doesn't hold a candle to Voldemort/Pikachu.

And though I'm generally intolerant of OCs, especially OFCs, as long as the character's flawed in some way, then I don't consider the character a Mary Sue.

Think of Tonks, for example. When OotP came out, a lot of people were saying, oh, she can change her appearance at will, she's JKR's Mary Sue, but I didn't see that. She's clumsy, has an anchor within the story (an Auror, Order member, and Sirius's relative), and doesn't appear to be there only for the romance. Therefore, for me, she's not a Mary Sue.

But yes, incredibly well-written stories can have Mary Sues. They're just easier to swallow if the writing's good. I think you'd do quite well at making an OFC not be a Mary Sue. I look forward to whatever you come up with.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Voldemort/Trevor doesn't hold a candle to Voldemort/Pikachu.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I still like Trevor. Toady *schnoogles*

as long as the character's flawed in some way, then I don't consider the character a Mary Sue

There are many half-elven-transfer-students writers who claim their character are no Mary Sues 'because they have flaws'. I think that Mary Sues are open for interpretation, and I don't make a great difference between Mary Sues and OFC. I make a difference between a well-written and a mind-bogglingly badly written character. Um. I think I'm not explaining it correctly. What I mean is: if "Mary Sue = author's self insert" then "OFC-who-gets-off-with-author's-crush = Mary Sue". If a well written OFC who gets the chance to get into Harry's knickers (in my case, Remus's knickers, or Sirius's knickers) is not necessarily a Mary Sue, then the definition of Mary Sue is not self insert.

I think you'd do quite well at making an OFC not be a Mary Sue.

Thanks a lot for your trust in my abilities! *g*

I don't intend writing a Mary Sue - apart from the fact that she will have to shag Lupin. But that's part of the challenge, so there...

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

I think that part of the problem with the whole OC/Mary Sue thing is that original characters must be interesting on their own merits to people other than the author. This means a real development of character - we all *know* the canon characters, so we don't need much development, but the reader must be convinced that the OC is worth caring about.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Word. As an author, I've got to make the OC interesting. There must be something about her/him that distinguishes them from the rest, some special ability, know-how or power. I've got to be able to create a story about him/her and s/he must be important to the plot. An additional problem is that the OC has to be somehow connected to canon. When I introduce an OC in my fic, I have to make sure that s/he fits in, is a friend/relative/old school friend/etc. of some canon character, or meet them under some curious circumstances. And if I'm not mistaken, according to the Mary Sue litmus tests being related to some major characters is one aspect that characterises a Mary Sue.

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

It's not so much what they can do and who they are connected to as how they are presented, I think. An example might be "Mildred/Jimmy," the shapeshifter Fabula Rasa has come to talk with Sirius in dog form in Stone Cold Sober. The story is never from her POV but she's presented through other characters. Another one that I think really works is Eirik in Josan's A Gift of Light. (Although I think that OMCs and OFCs present different challenges.)

And you know what? I think this would be a great discussion for our newly-created hp_fictalk. I can think of examples of OCs that work for me and some that don't, and it might be fun to talk about OC fic.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Following the inputs on this thread, I have tried to clarify the characteristics of Mary Sue as opposed to the characteristics of an OFC for myself, and my latest version includes the aspect of the character's necessity for the plot.

The example you give with Fabula Rasa's shapeshifter gave the hint: Mildred/Jimmy was introduced into an existing story line, because the utilisation of a shapeshifter was necessary to evolve the plot. As opposed to this, there are OFCs who have not been develeoped to fit into a story, but who are the story.

When I write my Lupin/OFC fic, I consider the OFC to be a Mary Sue, even withouth any super special powers and elven ancestors, simply because she will be somewhat of a self insert, and because the character comes first. She comes before the plot.

I think that if an author writes a fic featuring an OFC who has been created to seduce the male character of the author's choice, the writing process does not begin with the creation of a plot. It begins with the wish to have the male character of choice fall in love (or lust) and then, the background of the female character is developed. The plot line is important to support the OFC and not vice versa. The plot might be excellent, and so might be the character development, but still, when this OFC has clearly been there before the plot, I will consider her a Mary Sue.

A Mary Sue is a fantasy. It's what the author writing them thinks is the perfect way to look and act. (Definition gacked from skylark97) While at the age of 12, the fantasy will be made up of being a lost princess with super powers, most people will gradually adjust their fantasy-self to reality as they grow older. Well characterised, fleshed out OFCs, who act within a plot that revolves around them are, in a way, self-inserts.

The point is, I don't think it's a bad thing. Rowling inserted (many aspects of) herself as Hermione. D.H. Lawrence inserted himself as Birkin in "Women in Love". It is a valid literary device to blatantly model a character after the author.

I've strayed away from your comment and from what I originally wanted to say, but these ideas just formed themselves in my head and I felt the need to put them down.

Although I think that OMCs and OFCs present different challenges.

Oh yes. I go along with that.

And hey, the community is up? I haven't noticed yet. I'm very curious how it will turn out.

Talking about OCs is certainly very interesting, and there are good ones, who deserve getting a mention. I think, however, a distinction should be made between OCs who play a major role (i.e. are protagonists) and OCs who are minor characters, because they fulfill very different functions within the fic.

[taelle.livejournal.com]

For me there are two main signs of a Mary Sue. First, she's better than the canon characters at what they do - better than Ron at chess, better than Hermione at research, a better Seeker than Harry etc, and the second, and the most important - they start *teaching* everyone. You know, when an OC who appeared a day ago stops the Trio's quarrel and lectures about the importance of friendship, suddenly convinces Neville to be more sure of himself, stumbles on a depressed Lupin and starts explaining to him that him being a good person is more imoprtant than lycanthropy... that's Mary Sue for you. She can be not romantically with anyone in the story, can be relatively well written, but she's the one.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Ah yes. That's very true - the typical Mary Sue tends to preach a lot and improve everybody's life. She silkyfies Snape's hair, promotes relationships etc...

The point is, where does Mary Sue stop and the OC start? Every OFC I introduce must have something special about them, because otherwise there's no point including them in the story. An OFC must be important to the plot in some way. Of course, a blatant Mary Sue is easily spotted, but how much influence is an OFC allowed to have on the canon characters before she turns into a Mary Sue?

Questions, questions...

[taelle.livejournal.com]

I doubt there are clear-cut limits, but... the focus, I guess. I mean, most people's main interest in life isn't fixing up people you just met, especially if they're older etc. What's he focus of the OCs eexitence in this story& If it's interfering with the canon charas'lives or something like that, it's a Mary Sue.

[ex-milkthist86.livejournal.com]

I have a rather limited definition of Mary Sue, in that for me it inherently implies a negative title (a character must be a cliched self-insert for me to consider them a Mary Sue). There are no good or well-written Mary Sues in my mind, they are all annoying and/or cliched and/or poorly developed. In that vein, a character does not necesarily have to be 'original' to be considered one - there are plenty of Hermione/Ginny/Lily-Sues out there. If, on the other hand, she is well written, realistic, has a purpose outside of sexing up the author's favorite male character, etc, well then I consider her a legitimate original character. These are pretty rare (especially with the instant stigma attached to any female original character. Most of the good writers out there don't bother with OC at all). The only examples of legitimate original characters/non-Mary Sues that I can think of are Cassie's Rhysenn from the DT, or Lori's Allegra from PoU. So, no, an OC doesn't immediately imply a Mary Sue, at least not for me.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

The problem with 'Mary Sue' is that there is no clear definition. The phrase itself implies negative connotation and no-one wants to be associated as 'that Mary Sue writer'.

I am trying to clarify it for myself. The very basic definition of a Mary Sue is 'author's insert'. But, this is not necessarily a bad thing. Many authors model their characters after themselves.

I go along with saying 'Mary Sue = annoying and cliched character'. But OTOH, I am not entirely satisfied, because I feel it's too vague. What I find annoying and cliched, is not necessarily what you would find annoying and cliched.

As I said in my reply to isiscolo, a Mary Sue is a fantasy. She stands (more than other characters do) for something the author considers as the right and desirable behaviour. And while 12-year-old OFC writers think being a uber-powerful witch is most desirable, older fanfiction authors adjust their OFCs to the realities of life as well as the realities of canon. Nevertheless, when I write Lupin/OFC, I do write a fantasy. It differs from what I would have written at the age of 12, but an OFC as protagonist defines the entire plot line, conveys my fantasy, and shags Lupin is modelled after what I think are desirable features and characteristics.