This is where My!Remus comes from

[donnaimmaculata]

I was considering doing that "Post a list of 10 TV shows you watch and have your friends guess your favourite character" meme, but then I thought that it's way too easy. Name the thin dark-haired one and in you're likely to be right. Not much of a challenge.

Remus, then. rosina_alcona promised me chocolate if I talk about him, and even though I don't really like chocolate (I like chocolates, though!), I'd rather eat chocolate than work. So there.

It's no secret that I like Remus - not because he's nice, but because he is cool. I've got a very strong impression of what Remus is like(1). In fact, it is so strong that I don't read fics in which he is presented in a distinctly different manner, because, if this is the case, I don't recognise the character as Remus. Thewlis' Remus, for instance, did nothing for me - the character on screen didn't match in any way with the image I carry of Remus.

Reviewers have referred to my Remus as: "bad", "evil", "ruthless", "immoral" and "slutty" and some have expressed their bewilderment about my characterisation of him. I have my reasons for writing him that way, and I claim that I extrapolate from canon and don't use characteristics that aren't alluded to in the books. However, I place a different emphasis.

Remus was the character I fell in love with and which made me read Harry Potter in the first place. While I liked him all throughout PoA, the moment that really did it for me was the quiet, "Well hello, Peter. Long time, no see". This simple sentence sent shivers down my spine (still does), and I was completely lost. In this moment, Peter is dead and he knows it.

The whole Shrieking Shack scene and the way how Remus was in complete control of it has been frequently discussed. Remus works his way towards killing Peter, but he does it slowly and deliberately. He doesn't rush in a flurry of hatred and rage. He quietly decides to kill Peter, and then he just as quietly decides not to when Harry asks him to. This is an action of a singularily cold-blooded man. This is what constitutes the foundation of my characterisation of Remus to a high degree.

Remus makes an appearance in two books, and in both books, he plays a major role during the climax.(2) It's worth noting that Remus is the last and only man standing after the battle at the DoM (Harry doesn't count, he's the hero), while fully-trained aurors lie around unconscious. If this isn't an indication that Remus seriously kicks ass, I don't know what is. Not only is Mr. Looks-Like-One-Good-Hex-Would-Finish-Him-Off unhurt, he also manages to prevent Harry from leaping after Sirius, lifts the curse from Neville, and is presumably in charge of keeping the others alive and calm until the arrival of any officials. That's seriously cool.

At the same time, he manages to maintain that pleasant, lovable facade that renders him invincible. He doesn't present a target, either because people like him (If handled skillfully, "being liked" does not make one a doormat. It constitutes a shield and a weapon, and Remus is certainly very, very skillful.) or because he does not respond to being provoked.

This is, in a nutshell, where my characterisation of Remus derives from. He's deceptive in so many ways, I can't even start to emphasise how much of a turn-on fascinating I find this.

(1)This is not saying that I know what JKR intented Remus to be, or that my version of Remus is entirely correct, and certainly not that my impression of him is the only correct one.

(2) Strictly speaking, he also plays a major role in the post-climax of GoF. "Lie low at Lupin's" spawned more fics than any other sentence in the books.*

*Apart from "Found himself on his hands and knees in Snape's office".


How does one create LJ footnotes?

Comments

[kaysha.livejournal.com]

<3

I guess (ehh.. guess because I don't feel like actually thinking about it, heh) I see Remus a bit differently, but I really, really like the way you see him. .. (But maybe that's because I also see him that way!??! In a way?!?! - Uhh, I probably should start thinking about it.. Anyway, I really liked your post. :))

Footnotes: I think you can create up to 3 (?) with the sup+number code: &sup1; = ¹, &sup2; = ², &sup3; = ³
For all subsequent footnotes you'd have to use the regular HTML superscript tags: ^yourtexthere = ^yourtexthere

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't see Remus as being only ruthless. But this quality is alluded to and never carried further in the books, so this is why I play with it in my stories.

Thanks for the footnote tutorial! Seeing as I'm unable to write a text without including dozens of parentheses, I'll sure make ample use of them in future :-)

[fluffyllama.livejournal.com]

I love it when you turn donnapratchett. Footnotes, mmmm.

I agree with you more all the time about Remus. He's also the only one of the Marauders not dead, imprisoned or in hiding for all those years. He stays under the radar then too.

And although it would obviously have knackered the plot, we can use his distance from Harry not just while he was growing up, but also throughout PoA to back you up. Much as I love the film myself, it's wrong. Remus *didn't* actually go out of his way to tell Harry anything about his family, or even intentionally let him know that he could.

I think he's either intended to be as he's shown in the film of PoA, and was just handled badly/screwed by the plot, or your impressions are spot on. The 'Remus is really evil' option is just people getting the wrong end of the stick.

You're right about him in the shack. I'm just always too distracted by Sirius to notice :-)

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Footnotes are a fabulous invention ;-)

Remus has mastered the art of camouflage, while remaining a highly dangerous man. Excuse me while I drool in the corner.

The most striking aspect of his and Harry's relationship is that there isn't one. Remus is vaguely friendly but he never makes any attempts to be more than that. Even though Harry is starved for affection and attaches himself desperately to everyone who shows him any kindness (Hagrid, Ron, Molly), he doesn't consider Remus as one of his close friends or confidants.

Heh! See, I'm always too distracted by Remus to notice Sirius. By the time I finished PoA, I had quite forgotten that there was anyone else in the book but Remus ;-)

[author-by-night.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't call Remus cold-blooded... I blame his willingness to kill Peter on the Full Moon and on shock. I think that if he'd actually tried to go through with it, he wouldn't have managed to.

I don't know... I mean, I agree he's flawed, but cold blooded?

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Hence my disclaimer-footnote: I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just saying what I think *g*

Hm. Maybe I should mention that I don't think that being cold-blooded is a bad thing. I read Remus as extremely level-headed, rational and pragmatic. He sees the necessity of killing Peter (it seems to be an accepted action within the context of the wizarding world) and acts upon it. I can well imagine he's in shock, but shock does not make him incoherent or irrational - it makes him even more detached from his emotions than he normally is. Remus does everything "quietly": talking to the Dementors, reporting his tragic history, and telling a man he's about to kill him. There is no wavering nor an indication that he is emotionally shaken.

[imadra-blue.livejournal.com]

I agree with your view of him on some angles, and then again, on some other angles I don't. The thing is that I don't think he's that calculating and careful. That's far too Slytherin for him. I see him with a lot more passion than many people give him credit for, certainly, and while I see many of your points, that makes Remus a little to careful in mind. Mr. I Forgot My Potion And Almost Ate My Students isn't as careful as he tries to be, imho. ^^;; Now, he's a lot more subtle and careful than most Gryffs -- mostly I think, due to his Ravenclaw traits. He's also perfectly capable of doing wicked things and I support the dark!past theory, because honestly, why did Sirius think he was a traitor? He's not as innocent as people assume him to be, definitely.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

See, I don't really believe that being in a certain house makes the characters behave in a certain way. For me, the separation is more a sort of very vague guideline which indicates a general tendency, but does not determine characterisation. But anyway.

Remus might carry a lot more passion than he shows (which, BTW, is not what I believe; I think he truly is very indifferent), but he is not led by passion. He is in control of his emotions to the point of suppressing them completely, and he is most definitely in control of people and situations in almost all scenes we see him in.

I don't deny that he's in shock and acts rashly in PoA, and forgetting the potion is not the smartest move ever, but all throughout the Shrieking Shack scene, he directs the others confidently and calmly enough, which indicates that shock does not make him irrational.

Also, I don't think that Remus is dark or evil. He is pragmatic and level-headed, but his intentions are not bad. He's got a moral compass and he tries to do the right thing. What I think is that he is very efficient in dealing with his (or the Order's) enemies. He's secretive and he doesn't let people know what he feels, and I'm not surprised that Sirius, who is the absolute opposite, did not fully trust Remus.

[morganmuffle]

I've always thought/hoped that there was more to Remus than the common fanon version of him as the absent minded professor. Nice as that image is it doesn't explain everything he does, especially not the way he acts in the Shack. When you think about what his life must have been like, always hiding, turning into a beast once a monh, losing all his friends in pretty much one fell swoop it would be most unlikely for him to be smiling Professor Lupin who likes chocolate with nothing else beneath that.

I'm not sure I'd say cold blooded, ruthless possibly and definately one of those logical people who will do anything once they've decided their course of action (as in wanting to killing Peter without even a waver). I want to see him influence Harry more, he'd be much more effective at teaching him to clear his mind for occlumency and also just to stop losing his temper all the time.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

I think I've been hanging around that part of fandom which sees Remus as not-quite-so-lovable for too long. I hardly ever encounter absent-minded Professor Lupin anymore. I don't deny the existence of Professor Lupin, mind. Remus' teacher persona is very real and it is an essential part of him. However, I am interested in that other part of him, which we only get glimpses of when he is hexing people during climactic battles at the end of a book.

Even though Remus' influence would be good for Harry, I don't expect him to care for Harry more than he has so far. He's never actually shown much personal involvement - while giving Harry private lessons for the course of one year, he never tried to talk to Harry about his parents. I'm sure if he wanted to, he could have managed to do so without mentioning Sirius. But Remus is cautious and he doesn't like exposing himself more than necessary.

[cordelia_v]

What an interesting discussion, Donna. It's rare for me to bookmark a short essay and comments like this, but I'm going to do so in this case, and think it over.

I don't have much to say in response, since I, too, belong those who are terribly distracted whenever Snape enters the room, and hadn't considered Remus in isolation as you have. But your points about his coldbloodedness, strengths, and rationality are very well-taken. You make me want to stop work, and re-read PoA all over again, with your comments in mind.

And, just as an aside, I find myself admiring your English when you write non-fiction, even more than in your fiction (I'm assuming that your native language is German). It's not just your mastery of syntax and grammar here: your prose is so careful, precise, and persuasive. I'm seriously impressed.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Thank you very much. I've talked about Remus so often that I am under the impression I'm only repeating myself. It's nice to know that I don't appear to recycle my old ideas over and over again.

Isn't it funny how we completely focus on one character and ignore the others? One thing I love about fandom is that it broadened my perception so much. It taught me to love Snape, to think about Draco and to pity Percy.

I don't think that Remus is just pragmatic, nothing but pragmatic. Throughout PoA, he shows that he does care for Harry, even though he has learned to be very self-reliant and does not allow true closeness. It's only that I am more interested in his cold, rational side more than in the friendly professor.

And thank you so much. What a fantastic compliment! :-D Strictly speaking, German is not my native language (that's Polish), but it is my main operative language. I love English, though, and it makes me very happy to be able to communicate in it more or less fluently.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

If I can make other fans think about Remus, my mission is accomplished ;-)

As I pointed out above, I don't think that Remus is only ruthless. But it is part of his character - if he's under a lot of pressure and has to react quickly, he tends to be cool and pragmatic. And this cold pragmatism is what I like to explore.

[out-fox.livejournal.com]

What an interesting post! I'd been intrigued as to how you came to your interpretation of Remus, as I'd always attributed hsi excesive emotional control to the social withdrawal/restraint necessary for one with hsi history & condition. I'd never really considered the events in the Shrieing Shack that way, (I was more impressed by back story & exposition!Remus maintaining his kind proffesor mode to the kids) now it makes sense.

What I still wonder at though is how Remus could have suspected Siruis for so long, given his being a seemingly very rational man, and the fact that canon suggests Sirius, no matter how much of a wild card, would not have betrayed James.

PS. English is not your first language?! I'd assumed you were English, and a literary type at that.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Thank you :-)

excesive emotional control to the social withdrawal/restraint necessary

I think that's part of it. But no-one can achieve such high levels of emotional control without having the necessary character traits by nature. Remus merely took them a step further.

Remus' part in the Shrieking Shack scene is always worth a discussion *g* No matter how one might interpret his motives, I think it is obvious that he is pretty much in control of himself and the others. He tells everyone what to do, and they listen to him.

If I were a Sirius/Remus shipper, I'd say that we don't know whether Remus was wholeheartedly conviced of Sirius' guilt. He dislikes the idea of Sirius receiving the Dementor's Kiss, and he doesn't tell anyone that Sirius is an animagus. But I am not a Sirius/Remus shipper, so I won't.

However, I can imagine that Remus considered Sirius as not entirely reliable - full of good intentions, maybe, and devoted to James, but not to be trusted with secrets. After all, Sirius had once betrayed Remus' secret to Snape, thus showing his capability of grave betrayal. I think that Remus, with his outstanding ability of keeping a secret, would have distrusted if not Sirius' intentions so his ability of living up to them.

And no, I'm not English. Thank you for the compliment - I am very flattered indeed. I love English; it's a fantastic language, and I am happy I'm able to communicate in it. I am a literary type, though, so that helps ;-)

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Mmmm Remus. Sorry. I seem to be repeating myself these days.

Now, because I want to hear more: tell me about your Remus and love? And why is he in Gryffindor?

Swatkat

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

You cannot say "Mmmm Remus" too often for my taste ;-)

Remus doesn't love deeply. This is a misconstruction of fandom who wants to see him angst over his unrequired love for Sirius/Harry/Snape... *g*

Seriously, though, I think Remus is quite emotionally removed and is incapable of falling deeply and desperately in love. He can like and care for someone, but I don't see him making a person the centre of his life. Being emotionally removed is partly an ingrained character trait and partly the result of self-conditioning, and I don't think that he is capable of letting go of his defences and opening up. But, seeing as he is a pleasant enough person and (I bet!) dead charming, I can see him having occasional flings. Hence, the impression that my Remus is "slutty" *g*

As to the house question - I am not convinced that the house system is in any way decisive. Remus is brave in many respects - living as a werewolf and facing insults and prejudices day after day takes a lot of courage. Also, he belongs to the Order, who are in the line of fire in case of war, and he is outspoken for the case of Light. The fact that I also see him as cautious and calculating has nothing to do with his bravery. These qualities do not exclude each other - which is exactly what bugs me about the house system, because it makes it sound as though they were.

Hee! You asked me to talk about Remus! *loves*

[lavinialavender.livejournal.com]

What are you talking about, "my!Remus?" That sounded awfully canon to me.

And it reminded me why I LOVE REMUS SO MUCH.

Thank you.

*saves*

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Because he's all mine, bwahahaha!!!!!

Well, the canon facts are all there, but other readers interpret them in a different way. I don't claim that my version of Remus is the only accurate one. It's mine. Oh, okay, and yours.

[archon-mentha.livejournal.com]

It's no secret that I like Remus - not because he's nice, but because he is cool.

Much, much love for this. The man IS cool, and as close to amoral as anything...

My personal favorite example is the way he neglected to tell Dumbledore that Sirius could transform into a dog. In his own mind, Remus was endangering not only Harry's life in doing so, but any other student who happened to be in Sirius' path at the time...and he gets away with it completely.

(If handled skillfully, "being liked" does not make one a doormat. It constitutes a shield and a weapon, and Remus is certainly very, very skillful.)

This statement is absolutely, amazingly beautiful. I want it on a T-shirt. Or a bumper sticker. Or something.

Part of what started me writing Remus/Sirius in the first place was that I couldn't understand why Remus was usually written with such low self-esteem. It just didn't match my impression of the character at all.

The one thing I disagree with slightly about your Remus is the absolute underlying coldness. Everything about Remus is control, and he certainly does not hesitate to use the best means to his end...but I get the impression that the ends he strives for (beyond self-preservation) are generally humane.

For example, when he was leading up to killing Peter in the Shack, I saw that as an act of kindness as well as anger/revenge. Had Peter been brought back alive, he would have either been sent to Azkaban, or faced the Kiss. Remus has just been presented with what is left of one of his best friends after a stay in Azkaban, and in his conversation with Harry he strongly implies that he does not approve of the Kiss. Killing Peter would have ensured that justice was done, but without sending Peter to a fate worse than death.

And I do think he would have died for James, Lily, or Sirius, and that it is very possible that he will end up dying for Harry (which I do not think he would have done when they first met). He is just too clear-headed to run around saying so and making himself a target. *g*

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

he neglected to tell Dumbledore that Sirius could transform into a dog

Absolutely. Remus is so very cautious, it's almost absurd. His sense of self-preservation is his most striking feature. I think that many of his actions can be explained by it - he often does the right thing because it helps him to keep a low profile. It's just like the "being liked" thing. It helps him to remain unsuspicious and get on with his life.

What I like about Remus is that he took his weaknesses and turned them into a weapon. This is something that Snape and Sirius never managed. Remus tends to step back and avoid confrontation and he wants to be accepted - instead of being weakened by them, he uses these traits to his advantage. He avoids confrontation - this made him an excellent mediator; he steps back - this keeps him out of the line of fire and turns him into a removed spectator and analyst of the action; he wants to be accepted - and he is, even by people who would have distrusted him otherwise (like Molly, who doesn't like werewolves).

I really like your idea that he wanted to kill Peter to prevent his being Kissed. I've never thought about it that way.

This doesn't contradict my notion of his coldness, though. - Because what I mean is not that Remus doesn't care. He does care about his friends, about right and wrong - but he is prepared to do what is necessary, coldly and deliberately. He is prepared to kill Peter - for whatever reasons - because this is the thing to do in that moment, not because he is driven by blind rage, like Sirius is. Know what I mean? Remus acts very consciously, which I think is rather cold-blooded; an emotional person might kill someone in the heat of the moment, but Remus is prepared to murder, because it is the right thing to do. In Muggle terms: Remus is a henchman or a soldier, or - to use a more positive example - a surgeon who cuts off somebody's leg because it's necessary.

Even though I do think that Remus has a highly developed sense of self-preservation, I can see him dying for Harry, too, because it'd be the necessary thing to do. I see Remus' self-preservation as a method he uses to get along in life as well as possible, without being forced into confrontations, but when it comes to death, I can see him as very much indifferent.

He is just too clear-headed to run around saying so and making himself a target. *g*

Absolutely!

[musigneus.livejournal.com]

I don't always agree with you about Remus's character, but I do always find your Remus fascinating. As you might guess, considering the Remus-behaving-badly fic I chose to start my recs at crack_broom with this month ;).

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Hm, I should try harder to convince you, then ;-)

Seeing as you write a delicious Remus yourself, that's quite all right. And thanks a lot for the rec! :-)

[gaeta.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this most interesting post. I, too, love Remus, but you've given me a new perspective on many aspects of his canon charactereization. Mostly, I hadn't really looked at his strength although I've noted before that he appears to have a quiet authority where the Order and where Sirius in particular are concerned. His calm is obvious, but the element of coldness that you add is quite perceptive, and I think you do a fine job of supporting your view from canon. Still, I think there's just as much evidence of his kindness and sympathy.

As for his relationship with Harry, I'm holding off on making a decision about this. It's true he had no role in Harry's life while he was growing up, even when he started at Hogwarts, and once Sirius emerges as Harry's parent-figure, he steps to the side, but he does spend a good deal of time with Harry in PoA, and even in OotP, it's often him and Sirius together who speak to and advise Harry. I'd say, if he doesn't establish a closer relationship with Harry in the wake of Sirius's death, then you're right. We'll have to wait and see.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I'm glad you found this interesting. I do agree that Remus is a gentle and sympathetic person - he acts kindly and full of understanding through most of the books. However, he's got this other side to him, too, and this is something that gets alluded to but never thoroughly explored in canon. I find it highly interesting, because it gives Remus an edge and makes him a multi-faceted character.

As to his relationship with Harry: It is obvious that Remus likes Harry and that he offers him advice on important matters. But I just don't see a deep emotional bond happening. Harry does not love Remus like he loves Sirius or Hagrid - or Ron and Hermione. Remus is never Harry's confidant when he's troubled. At the beginning of GoF when Harry wants to tell someone about his scar, he never thinks of Remus, who's been his teacher and mentor all year, but of Sirius, whom he's met only briefly. Of course, this is partly for plot reasons, but I think that it also indicates that Remus has always been quite distant. He is not the man a boy would run to with his worries.

My impression of Remus is that he provides technical help: he's good at teaching and he helps Harry with the Patronus charm, but he never volunteers any private information. Despite the fact that he spent much time with Harry, he's never told him that he used to be friends with Harry's father at school. He could have said that he knew James without telling how close they were and without mentioning Sirius. After all, knowing James does not necessarily mean being close to Sirius. But Remus is cautious and he rather remains silent on that topic altogether. I think this is symptomatic for his relationship with Harry (or with people in general). Remus does not volunteer any private information, unless he's forced with his back at the wall and has no other choice. Harry seems to instinctively feel this and he doesn't direct his questions towards Remus.

Anyway, that's my theory so far. I don't think that Remus will become more to Harry in HBP, but of course I might be wrong.

[tigra-666.livejournal.com]

Wow.

So have to read your fics now.

Am intreged.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Thanks. I hope you enjoyed the fics, too.

[wildestranger.livejournal.com]

That's very interesting, and I very much agree with you on Remus being ruthless and just that cool. *grin* And that line to Peter is incredibly hot. Must go read your fic now...

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

And that line to Peter is incredibly hot.

Isn't it? I melt into a sad puddle of goo every time I read it. I bet that's what Peter did, too.

Remus is the coolest character ever and I love his rational pragmatism to little bits.

[rosina-alcona.livejournal.com]

Oh thank you my sweet-toothed one! *bestows chocolate in all directions*

I'm going to have to go and re-read your Susan-as-Death fic now, because I want more footnotes...

I love your interpretation of Remus. It's not my own, but I enjoy it as an alternative to my (definitely possibly not very deeply thought about) impression of him as a fairly kindly, very intelligent, slightly other-worldly (if you can use that in this case?) chap, who does what needs to be done, but with a heavy heart.

The ruthless!coldblooded!Remus is exciting and I enjoy reading your fics thoroughly. Especially as ruthless = HOT. Also? Your Remus is slutty. In the best possible way!

And I have questions! As usual!

How much does his wolfish-ness affect his behaviour? For instance, wolves are pack animals, but then he's not quite a wolf, is he. Which leads to my next - why isn't Remus an Animagus? I assume he would be a wolf if he was one. If he turned into a wolf before he turned into a were-wolf, would he stop the full moon changing him? I've gone existential again, haven't I.

Do you feel that his ruthlessness could be interpreted as wolfish behaviour? For instance, his quiet decision to kill Peter is chilling, but to a wolf, whose pack/cubs are being threatened (or possibly because Peter was physically weak and vulnerable at that point) this decision is just good sense? It may be that Remus in his wolf-mode is living entirely in the present and deals with situations as they arise, in a way that may seem heartless to humans whose minds are in a frenzy of 'what if...who...if I...when he...who am I...does he love me...' angst.

But then this would negate your interpretation of him as highly aware of what he is doing, and detracts from his intelligence. Although those could just be his human side.

OK, enough babbling.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

I'm getting round to answering my comments at last! RL's a bitch.

kindly, very intelligent, slightly other-worldly

You know, I don't deny Remus' kindness and gentleness - even though I don't think he's the absent-minded professor type; he's far too introspective for that - but I like the underlying pragmatism of his character. Slutty!Remus is good fun.

why isn't Remus an Animagus?

Interesting question. Not that I've got an answer to it, but that's never stopped me making wild assumptions. I could imagine that this is a technical question - it's very likely that he's got a deeply rooted aversion against transformations of any kind, seeing as the werewolf transformations are so painful. He might have been even more averse against it as a teenager, and it never crossed his mind to try it, as well. Plus, being a werewolf, he is already living on the edge of illegality by definition, so adding another crime to the list might not seem like a good idea. But, you know, it'd be really interesting to know what happens to a werewolf who changes into another animal at will. Though I assume that the fact that he can change into a different animal (or a wolf) would not influence the werewolf change. The werewolf and animagus transformations seem to be very different: werewolves change their physical structure, which animagi only cast some sort of glamour thingie. I am being about as scientific here as Mustrum Ridcully.

I tend to disregard the "wolf" thing in my Remus interpretations. My Remus is not so much driven by wolf instincts and doesn't have to "subdue the wolf inside" all the time. It's an aspect that's been explored by so many authors that I don't think I could contribute much to it. Canon!Remus doesn't give the impression that he identifies with the "wolf" a lot. It's something that happens to him more than what he is. And I love Rowling for having created a werewolf that does not fit the traditional werewolf norms - who is neither bloodthirsty and hairy, nor wallowing in angst all the time. Well, I love Rowling for having created Remus.

[tesseract-5.livejournal.com]

great post!

I shudder in horror when I find fics that depict Remus as being a doormat. You have some excellent points regarding Remus' inherent strenght and power(the DoM scene) that we've been slavering over in the Lupin discussion thread at mugglenet's forums.

However, there's a wonderful side of Remus that is all about his gentleness-- starting with his lesson dealing with Neville's fear of Snape and on to watching out for Sirius being bullied by Molly, and asserting the rights of Harry and his peers to being told some of the truth in the kitchen scene in OotP, and the way in which he handles the scene in the DoM as well.

(just read your Lupin/Snape story at skyehawke, mmm.. great imagery!)

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

When I first started reading fanfiction three years ago, I was seriously wondering whether "werewolves mate for life" was an established mythological fact. I was also wondering who that wimpy boy was and what he had done with Remus.

I don't deny Remus' gentle side, you know, but I like focusing on that other side of him, because it's there but doesn't get explored in canon. Remus definitely is a nice person with a core of steel. I can picture him becoming very focused in times of crisis.

Thank you very much. I'm glad you enjoyed the fic. I assume you're referring to "Schlafes Bruder"? - I was reading G.K. Chesterton when I wrote it, so the imaginary is somewhat influenced by his writing (though not nearly as breathtaking).

[http://users.livejournal.com/_riz/]

I quite love that last-man-standing observation. Never really thought about it before, but fuck, he DOES kick ass, doesn't he? ;)

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

I only noticed it because I wrote a fic set in the aftermath. I then realised that Remus was the only one who was unhurt and taking care of the kids. He sure as hell is capable *g*

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

It's because humans understand red-hot rage and bloodlust on a very basic level *g*

I wonder what it says about me that the thing I like best about Remus - a canonically kind and gentle man - is his acceptance of becoming a murderer, be it by accident (werewolf) or on purpose (killing Peter). Maybe I should have my mental state checked.

Whimpy!Crying!Angstridden!Remus makes me froth at the mouth. And whoever came up with that moustache and cardigan combo should burn in a thousand hells.

[secondsilk.livejournal.com]

I go for the skinny dark haired ones, too. And Remus.
My understandings of the characters have only recently (a couple of days) been stimulated by these sorts of essays. And it's fascinating. Very well argued here, and I do agree. Cold-blodded, rational, not ruled by impulses, ruled by calucations based on we-don't-really-know-what. (Being liked, paying debts, maintaining image of self.)
Reviewers have referred to my Remus as: "bad", "evil", "ruthless", "immoral" and "slutty" . I think "ruthless" is the one not like the others in that list. It certainly fits him well (and Hermione, to a point).

That line in PoA makes me shiver, too. Although "Goodbye, Peter," and the earlier "we've met," also make me wide eyed by this character. (That's all he has to say about the map, and Sirius and James, and Snape?!).

Anyway. Thank you very much for this. I'll be coming back to it.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

I am sorry for the much belated reply. I wasn't ignoring you, but was simply entirely absent from LJ (once again).

The skinny dark haired ones do exude an irresistible appeal, don't they?

When I first started reading HP fics, I was seriously wondering whether "werewolves mate for life" was some sort of established mythological fact, because it was incorporated in about every fic that featured Remus. Fortunately, this soon changed.

I see Hermione as quite ruthless, too, but I get the impression that Remus is well aware of his own ruthlessness, while Hermione mostly thinks she's "doing it for a greater good". This might be over-interpreting Remus' character - however, I think that Remus has a great self-awareness. I'm not sure I could base my argument on canonical facts here; Remus knows what he's doing and he always seems to be sort of watching himself from a distance. My impression, anyway.

Oh God, you're absolutely right about the "we've met" line. It's excellent. It so captures the essence of Remus - the control, and the fact that he won't give anything away unless he absolutely has to.

Another thing that strikes me about him is how openly he speaks about death. In OotP, he tells Molly bluntly "in case you and Arthur died", when comforting her after her encounter with the boggart. That's pretty straightforward, especially since Molly herself says something along the lines of, "if we... when something happens to Arthur and me".

Like... 7 months later!

[alya1989262.livejournal.com]

Oooh! You said everything I ever thought about Remus! Yeah, I drool over his coolness quite frequently *grin*. I love him.
In a discussion a few months ago at thegreatbreak (flocked, btw!), we were talking about the Marauders' characterisation and someone said that Remus probably was the one who slept around; not necessarily being a man-whore or anything, he just seems like the lustful type... *drools*
And he's a very good liar, what with having to hide his condition for years. :) (So should Peter be, if he outwitted James, Lily, Sirius and Remus)
I also think that Remus got straight O's, or a least E's. James and Sirius were far more brilliant, of course, almmost beyond comparison. And I don't think Peter was that far behind. He did, after all, manage to become an Animagi, even with their help.
Anyway, great insight into our favourite werewolf. Will be added to my Memories, of course.
~Alya~

Re: Like... 7 months later!

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

My reply comes, like, seven months later, too. Sorry about that.

I love Remus' coolness oh so much. He exudes authority and willpower and it makes me all weak-kneed.

I tend to think that Remus slept around quite a lot, too. He's emotionally detached and not likely to decline sex because he of fear of getting hurt. If his relationship with Harry is any indication, Remus is good at superficial bonding: He's nice and friendly to Harry and very likable, but when he leaves, Harry doesn't miss him. This is probably like others (i.e. his sex partners) would feel about him, too.

he just seems like the lustful type

Oh Lord, yes... mmh, Remus...

What? Sorry. Got caught up there for a moment.

Seriously, though, he is likely to like every activity that is enjoyable on a purely physical level. He's in pain so often that everything that feels good is most welcome.

I also think that Peter wasn't as hopeless as he is made out to be. He not only managed the Animagus transformation at 15, he also outwitted just about everyone who trusted him, including Dumbledore. Also, his Animagus form is a rat, and rats are very intelligent.

[amihan-811.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with your idea of Remus. There was a discussion a long while back from one of the HP yahoo groups about the characterizations of Snape, Sirius, and Remus and I believe it was [Bad username or site: @ livejournal.com] who mentioned Remus' darker, edgier side. I dislike fics that portray Weepy,doormat!Remus since I don't see him like that at all. Beyond that pleasant demeanor is an intelligent, calculating individual who is very capable of disregarding rules and authority and just knows where to hit where it really hurts. I agree that he's compassionate, kind, and brave, but his behavior also indicates that he's more interested in self-preservation than confronting responsibility. It's the contradictions in him that I find alluring, and makes him such a fascinating character in my book.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

I am sorry for this very belated reply. I haven't been active on LJ for months and am just catching up.

I remember that when I first started reading HP fanfiction, I was seriously wondering whether "werewolves mate for life" was in any way an established mythological fact. Most fics seemed full of weepy, tearful Remus who is pathetically greatful to Sirius for shagging him and bonds with him forever. Fortunately, the trend changed and Ruthless!Remus was en vogue at some point.

Beyond that pleasant demeanor is an intelligent, calculating individual who is very capable of disregarding rules and authority and just knows where to hit where it really hurts.

Yes, absolutely. I especially like the bit "knows to hit where it really hurts". The way he forces Harry to obey him by mentioning his parents and making him feel guilty in PoA is a very good example. And this doesn't at all contradict the fact that Remus is a pleasant and - generally - nice person. I believe that he really cares for others and is a good friend, and he likes being liked, because being liked makes many things so much easier in life, but, unlike Sirius, he is not prepared to attach himself deeply to others. He's quite a challenge, that one.

[amihan-811.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link to the essay. While I have some reservations on equating lycanthropy with chronic illness, I still found the essay interesting and fairly spot-on when it comes to analyzing Remus' character. I'm curious to hear your take on this. What do you think of Remus' views concerning his lycanthropy? I get the sense that he pretty much considers his condition as normal for himself (since he's lived as a werewolf for so long), and that in his view, he's no different from the rest. It's only when wizarding society continues to reject him that he's reminded of his outsider status.

Wherein I like to read myself talk about Remus a lot

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

I generally don't agree with everything [Unknown site tag] says, but she always raises interesting points and adds a different perspective to Remus' characterisation. (She wrote two or three other Remus-centric essays which I found interesting.)

I don't know enough about chronic illnesses to judge on whether it is a valid parallel. However, I think that it's probably more "normal" for Remus to be a werewolf than outsiders think. If he really was bitten as a very small child and doesn't remember a time when he wasn't a werewolf, it is certainly something that defines him as a person - as opposed to a mere condition he suffers under, if that makes any sense.

What do you think of Remus' views concerning his lycanthropy?

Hah! Good question. I do think that he perceives it as a huge part of himself and feels more comfortable with it than we give him credit for. Maybe sort of like a woman accepts menstrual cramps as part of her life once a month? (I remember a male friend of mine saying once that he could not come to terms with having to menstruate, and I argued that it's not that bad and you get used to it.) You might feel annoyed or bitter about it and moan to your friends, but it's nothing that makes life not worth living or something. Werewolf transformations are worse than that, but if you have to live with them, you can't afford going to pieces everytime it occurs. And I think that Remus has his sense of humour and his people skills that act like a buffer between himself and the world.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: the lycantrophy has influenced Remus' entire development, as he had to develop certain survival skills which would not have been necessary otherwise. At the same time, he cannot afford certain behaviour patterns to show: his extreme politness and mild manners are, I think, his way of staying under the radar. These character traits might never have become as pronounced had he not been forced to suppress aggressions from a very early age on. - I can well imagine that Remus' parents viewed every outburst as an indication that the werewolf is breaking through, you know? So the way the public perceives werewolves in general has influenced the way Remus behaves to a strong degree, even though he might not realise it. But fortunately, fandom is there to analyse him to pieces.

[clonedangel.livejournal.com]

I agree with your Remus, up to a point.

We know, or can make pretty educated guesses from some very telling moments in the Potterverse, that Remus has seen a hell of a lot of shit in his life. A werewolf from a young age, having to cope with racism and prejudice, overshadowed by his friends, as we see in Snape's Worst Memory, his childhood cannot have been easy. This, compounded with the death and betrayel of two of his best friends will have left scars. The likelihood is that as a teenager, Remus was far less cruel, cold and cutting as his bitter adult self.

No?

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

I know I tend to perceive Remus as rather cooler than Rowling intended him to be (but I still maintain that my interpretation is not wholly unfounded - Remus is very much in-control in crucial situations in the novels). But despite my bias, I can totally see Remus as being much more timid and withdrawn as a teenager, especially as he craved friendship and acceptance. He still is withdrawn and quiet as an adult, but he has learned that he has to take control in times of crisis. - I don't think that he likes it very much (he certainly didn't like it as a teenager, as proved by the scene in Snape's Worst Memory), but he accepts that controlling a situation is something he is capable of. I guess I see Remus as very pragmatic; when there is a job to be done - no matter whether it's teaching children, killing the traitor or spying among werewolves - he is prepared to do it and to do it well.

I also think that the whole Shrieking Shack incident served to boost Remus' authority among his friends. I imagine Sirius and James to have felt guilty about the whole thing (not so much because of Snape, but because of Remus) and Remus is quite skillful when it comes to using other people's guilty conscience to manipulate them - cf. Harry in PoA. (I'm thinking of the line where he tells Harry off for "poorly repaying his parents' sacrifice by gambling it for some Zonko products".) I see this as a turning point for Remus: the moment where he realised that he had the power of exercising control over other people - and thus the learning process started.