This is where My!Remus comes from

[donnaimmaculata]

I was considering doing that "Post a list of 10 TV shows you watch and have your friends guess your favourite character" meme, but then I thought that it's way too easy. Name the thin dark-haired one and in you're likely to be right. Not much of a challenge.

Remus, then. rosina_alcona promised me chocolate if I talk about him, and even though I don't really like chocolate (I like chocolates, though!), I'd rather eat chocolate than work. So there.

It's no secret that I like Remus - not because he's nice, but because he is cool. I've got a very strong impression of what Remus is like(1). In fact, it is so strong that I don't read fics in which he is presented in a distinctly different manner, because, if this is the case, I don't recognise the character as Remus. Thewlis' Remus, for instance, did nothing for me - the character on screen didn't match in any way with the image I carry of Remus.

Reviewers have referred to my Remus as: "bad", "evil", "ruthless", "immoral" and "slutty" and some have expressed their bewilderment about my characterisation of him. I have my reasons for writing him that way, and I claim that I extrapolate from canon and don't use characteristics that aren't alluded to in the books. However, I place a different emphasis.

Remus was the character I fell in love with and which made me read Harry Potter in the first place. While I liked him all throughout PoA, the moment that really did it for me was the quiet, "Well hello, Peter. Long time, no see". This simple sentence sent shivers down my spine (still does), and I was completely lost. In this moment, Peter is dead and he knows it.

The whole Shrieking Shack scene and the way how Remus was in complete control of it has been frequently discussed. Remus works his way towards killing Peter, but he does it slowly and deliberately. He doesn't rush in a flurry of hatred and rage. He quietly decides to kill Peter, and then he just as quietly decides not to when Harry asks him to. This is an action of a singularily cold-blooded man. This is what constitutes the foundation of my characterisation of Remus to a high degree.

Remus makes an appearance in two books, and in both books, he plays a major role during the climax.(2) It's worth noting that Remus is the last and only man standing after the battle at the DoM (Harry doesn't count, he's the hero), while fully-trained aurors lie around unconscious. If this isn't an indication that Remus seriously kicks ass, I don't know what is. Not only is Mr. Looks-Like-One-Good-Hex-Would-Finish-Him-Off unhurt, he also manages to prevent Harry from leaping after Sirius, lifts the curse from Neville, and is presumably in charge of keeping the others alive and calm until the arrival of any officials. That's seriously cool.

At the same time, he manages to maintain that pleasant, lovable facade that renders him invincible. He doesn't present a target, either because people like him (If handled skillfully, "being liked" does not make one a doormat. It constitutes a shield and a weapon, and Remus is certainly very, very skillful.) or because he does not respond to being provoked.

This is, in a nutshell, where my characterisation of Remus derives from. He's deceptive in so many ways, I can't even start to emphasise how much of a turn-on fascinating I find this.

(1)This is not saying that I know what JKR intented Remus to be, or that my version of Remus is entirely correct, and certainly not that my impression of him is the only correct one.

(2) Strictly speaking, he also plays a major role in the post-climax of GoF. "Lie low at Lupin's" spawned more fics than any other sentence in the books.*

*Apart from "Found himself on his hands and knees in Snape's office".


How does one create LJ footnotes?

Comments

[imadra-blue.livejournal.com]

*nods* I disagree about the houses, there's underlying traits and predilictions of the house in every character. I take the houses pretty seriously, but for the characters, I go by their characterizations and damn the house. In fact, I use the characters to interpret the house. Remus is very perceptive. I think Remus is one of those non-expressive passionate people. I just don't think anyone will ever see it, except in moments of privacy and YEARS of trust. I think he is repressive, but I think it's there. I don't ascribe him with the level of manipulation you've given him, but there is some ability to manipulate people and events, certainly.

Oh, I don't think Remus was ever evil. I said dark!past, as in there were a couple ambiguous things he might have done, got suckered into, was forced to do -- this could be anything from working for the underworld to covering something up. I don't think it's anything serious, I certainly can't see him working for the DE. I just think their is some extra layer of guilt, hence his repressive behavior. Remus is a GOOD man, imho, and I think he does try to do the right thing -- but like any human being he makes mistakes.

Remus is a very controlled, very self-disciplined individual. I like that about him. I just don't see him quite as careful as you do, but I think our visions are similar.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Sorry it took me so long to reply. RL's been a bitch, but I find your thoughts too interesting to ignore ;-) Oh, and I haven't got round to reading your Snape/Lupin fic you posted the other day, but I fully intend to read it asap.

Anyway. The houses.

there's underlying traits and predilictions of the house in every character

While I can definitely see that, I would argue that this is true for a wide range of character traits. Harry was canonically contributed ambition (Slytherin) and intelligence (Ravenclaw) by the Sorting Hat, and one of his most striking features is blind loyalty (Hufflepuff). In fact, I would say that loyalty is his primary driving force: he is loyal to Hagrid (even though he realises that Hagrid is not such a good teacher), to Dumbledore and to Sirius, and it is this loyalty that constitutes the basis of many of his actions. His actions than are an expression of bravery, but they are founded on loyalty. You could take just about every character, put them in a different house and argue why they belong into that house. My Remus is rather calculating, because I don't think that being calculating contradicts being brave. In fanon, Gryffindor bravery is most often associated with recklessness, but I am pretty sure (though I don't have the books on me) that Gryffindors are never depicted as inherently reckless in canon. It is a fanon interpretation and it is certainly a valid one, but not the valid one. It doesn't mean that Gryffindor = brave = reckless, hence calculating = not reckless = not Gryffindor. You can be both brave and calculating. I think that rather than creating standard ideas of what bravery is (namely recklessness and hot-headedness), the house system could be used to illustrate that bravery comes in many different forms amd implies different things. For example, Snape demonstrates outstanding bravery (if indeed he is a spy "at great personal risks"), but he is often used as the example for the quintessential Slytherin; also, one of Albus' most striking features is cunningness (Slytherin) and Hermione's intellligence (Ravenclaw). They are also brave, but bravery is not the first character trait I would contribute to them.

Also, I'm not sure that it is the dominant trait that makes you go into a certain house. In canon, we have at least two characters (Harry and Hermione), who asked the Hat specifically to not be put into a certain house (Slytherin and Ravenclaw respectively). From what I gather, the Hat respects the students' wishes. In combination with the fact that the Hat said Harry was well suited for at least three houses (Gryffindor, Slytherin and Ravenclaw), I think that it is not so much the question of your dominant character trait (no-one would name bravery as Neville's most dominant feature), but more the question of which character trait one thinks is the most worthy to cultivate. In a way it's one's weapon of choice - the method one chooses to cope with one's life.

[imadra-blue.livejournal.com]

Hee! You're back! *glomps*

I agree on certain levels, and I definitely agree Lupin is more careful than many Gryffindors. Calculating to a certain degree, even. I guess I simply attribute him with a lot of internal compassion and passion, though I don't think he's a demonstatrive person at all. And he's highly contradictory.

As for the trait cultivating, I also think of that. Because I think an 11 year old is based more on where the student would do well, since that was the Sorting Hat's emphasis with Harry.

I also consider methods. I consider the house traits to be expressions of something. For Gryffindors, I think it's passion and emotion. Harry bases a lot of his actions off emotion. So does Hermione. I also think her secondary method of acting is more Hufflepuff than Ravenclaw. The Sorting Hat only considered it before settling on Gryffindor, I think it probably considered Hufflepuff for her, too.

Traits for all houses exist in every character. Lupin has the subtlety of a Slytherin, the wit of a Ravenclaw, the patience of a Hufflepuff, and the passion (internalized) of a Gryffindor.

Then again, I obsess over the houses a bit. :D I try to stick to the chracter more than house, because ultimately, Lupin is defined as himself, rather than as a Gryffindor. I also consider him a Gryffinclaw (Gryffindor + Ravenclaw mix.)

And part II, because Remus wouldn't fit in the comment above

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

I think Remus is one of those non-expressive passionate people.

I see Remus as emotionally very detached and unable to open up to his feelings. I am convinced that he had cultivated this, but you can only master and cultivate behaviour patterns that are integral part of your personality to begin with. I see Remus as someone who tended to be emotionally distant by nature, and his condition, the experiences he made and the hostility of his environment (in general) only served to enforce his desire to shut himself away.

As a result, he perfected his ability to detach himself from his feelings. However, if you detach yourself from your feelings, it is not possible to decide to open up again all of a sudden. What I mean is: a person who is used to suppress their emotions, sooner or later loses the ability of experiencing them. Remus doesn't walk around suppressing all the time and hiding his emotions because he doesn't want the others to see how much he really suffers. He just doesn't feel all that much to begin with.

That is not saying that he is entirely cold. I am convinced that he is a nice and friendly person and a caring friend; but I also think that there is only a very, very limited range of people for whom he's ever felt more than superficial liking. Not only because he doesn't want to attach himself too much, but also because he is (no longer) able to. I say this as someone who has perfected the whole "being detached" thing, too. There is a small range of people who mean a lot to me (my family), then there is long nothing, and then come my close friends. It's not that I'm entirely indifferent to people, but I don't feel very passionately about most of them. In fact, I don't feel very passionately about most things; in general, my mood varies between "vaguely amused" and "mildly annoyed", and I am not suppressing any hidden passions. I therefore derive part of my characterisation of Remus from personal experience, because I know that friendly indifference and politeness can form the foundation of a person's character.

I just don't see him quite as careful as you do, but I think our visions are similar.

Yeah, I think they are. Obviously, we come from different corners and base our characterisation on different personal experiences. What I find so fascinating about character discussions is that they can be interpreted in many different ways, all of which make perfect sense to the person doing the interpreting *g*

Re: And part II, because Remus wouldn't fit in the comment above

[imadra-blue.livejournal.com]

Ooo, good explanation. I love this. It's nice to discuss Remus with someone who knows what they're talking about. *eyes a few Lupin fangirls at sneers at them out of of habit*

I can see that version of Remus, totally. In a way, it makes sense. My own Remus tends to have a very thick skin. He doesn't feel things in passing. He's an all or nothing guy. You're either someone he'd die for, or a mere acquaitance. He is somewhat detached, but also feels certain very deeply that he covers up. I guess my Remus is sort of contradictory in internal nature and having just got done beta reading him for someone, it was hard to define why I felt something was offf. He generally does speak in absolutes, except for when he does. Each moment is weighed carefully and he's not a man of impulse. His hard life made him careful.

I guess I say this because that's how I am. I either love someone fiercely, or I'm like eh, they're all right. I consider myself fairly intelligent, but I tend to do something without a lot of forethought and rue that, though as I get older that fades.

I could never write a Remus essay like you did. I tip my hat to you. My Remus is very fluid, like water. I can present him to you in a fic, but I'll be damned if I can pin him down in an essay.

I do, however, consider him to be a considerate man. I don't think he ever intentionally hurts anyone, and I tries to avoid that. I also don't see him as the type to develop new friendships. That's why I can't see Remus/Tonks or Remus/Kingsley or any of that. Hot that's it's wrong, but I see Remus as wary of the new. He prefers the familiar in my mind, even if it's not nice, like Snape. I can also see Remus/Harry, because Harry has the qualities of the familiar, i.e. James and Lily.

Then again, Snupin is my OTP and Remus/Harry my secondary ship, so I'm biased. ^_~

I love him, because there's a lot of versions of Remus that I can accept as reasonable extrapolations -- like yours. And then there's so many others that are shallow and make me want to curl up into a hole and die.

Next time I see a chocoholic, alcoholic, battling the wolf NOT on the full moon Remus, I might just hurt someone. *bares teeth*

Sorry, I've been scarred by badfic recently.

Re: And part II, because Remus wouldn't fit in the comment above

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

He doesn't feel things in passing. He's an all or nothing guy. You're either someone he'd die for, or a mere acquaitance.

Yes, I agree with that - even though this seems to contradict what I said before ;-)

But really, I see Remus as someone who used to feel more and more deeply than he does now and then lost that ability gradually in the course of the years (if only because many of those he loved died).

And what you say about him not developing new friendships makes so much sense. I could never put my finger on it, but you're right. That's why Snape/Lupin makes much sense, even though they dislike each other. They've known each other so long, they know what to expect and, on a level, can trust each other. Because, really, they know each other's darkes secrets already.

Next time I see a chocoholic, alcoholic, battling the wolf NOT on the full moon Remus, I might just hurt someone. *bares teeth*

I know exactly what you mean! *g*

Re: And part II, because Remus wouldn't fit in the comment above

[imadra-blue.livejournal.com]

I contradict myself all the time on Remus, or at least it seems that way. I think it's because he's a walking contradiction, at leas tin my head.

And I think I sort of agree on Lupin's feeling becoming more deadened over the years. I think he's more of a bottler and thinks he doesn't feel something, but then it comes pouring out of him.

And word on Snape/Lupin. They just seem both like the type of men that would prefer the hell they know and are wary of anything new.
Despite them not having a comfortable relationship, they do in a weird way. :D

Oh, good, as long as I'm not the only one who fed up with fanon!Remus. :D